blonde poker forum

This hand is from the WSOP 2004, $2000 PLHE event. 1st level with the blinds 25/50.

The hand is from a book, so if you do know it, please don't give away the answers.

You're playing the part of Mr X - big name player, highest stakes, good tournament player. You have 2,600 in chips. Your opponent is a complete unknown in the small blind who starts the hand with 2,200.

You pick up Qs Qd in early position and raise to 150. Folded round to the small blind who raises it 350 more. You decide to call, the Pot is 1,050.

Flop:

Qh Aspades 6c

Your opponent checks. Action on you.


1. Do you play the hand differently at all preflop?

2. Your opponent has checked the flop, what do you read into this?

3. If you bet, how much? And if you check, why?

Action preflop is fine. QQ can be a dangerous hand when reraised against so the flatcall hoping to hit a set is OK.

I am taking the reraiser for an ace so when he checks I bet my set here. 800 to go (slightly smaller than the pot)

its pot limit. pre-flop i think its fine ...allows you to get away reasonably if it comes A or K and he bets out post flop..if he trap checks you can check behind and see the turn

once you've hit your set, I bet it out hoping to be check raised....

my stack is going in the middle here, barring something very strange

Not really, might have raised it 50 more, but, to be honest, it depends on the table, the company I'm holding and the history of what I'd seen thus far.



Well, considering he's a complete unknown, the check could mean a whole multitude of things, but after re-raising pre-flop, you have to put him on either Aces, Kings or maybe A-Q or Jacks.


Because there's an Ace on the Flop and he's re-raised pre-flop out of position, I'm putting him on Kings. Therefore, I want to keep him in and hope he calls bets on the Turn and River. Also, it keeps the pot small if he does indeed have the Bullets.

i like preflop play

on flop i bet 1/3 to 1/2 pot allowing him to think a full pot check raise would get me off the pot and insure he is pot commited

as i am the pro here and playing an unknown who always think the pros are at it then i am also thinking of the possiblity of him having a straight draw with a hand like KJ or KT or JT
the only hand i am ruling out is aces as its the only hand that can beat me and i really really want to get my chips in here if he has aces then so be it its poker

I agree with everyone else....pre-flop play is standard.

I think that the appearance of the ace coupled with my opponent's check could be a worry. When the re-raise came in pre-flop you would have to be thinking A-A, K-K or A-K (or at least that is what the bet intended to show). The important point to note is that his re-raise signified that he thought he had the better hand. I think that to check the flop when the ace hits is either very weak poker or the continued actions of someone with a big hand. Surely my opponent is going to come out firing with any hand other than a monster here. If he had K-K a bet is necessary here to find out how the land lies, so representing here is a standard play. Why isn't he doing this?

The check makes me think he has A-A, A-K, A-Q or 6-6.

Absolutely bet. I am not entirely sure the amount matters. Our opponent has either given up on the pot or is ready to play back at us. A bet of about half the pot seems about right. If he flat calls we could be in trouble. If he check-raises I think A-K is more likely.

I think the chips are going in on this one.

 

Here we go again ...but I love these hand analysis questions as we can all learn a lot from them regardless of who we are.

THis si long so don't read if you want your mind and thinking contaminated.

Firstly it is going to be tough to play this hand with very little information about the small blind but you are going to have to make assumptions based on their age and apparance and whether they have yet played any hands. In the absece of information then I am going to assume they are a regular OK type player. I am also going to have to guess if they are a scalp/name hunter or somone who knows or recognizes who I am and as such whether or not they will rush into playing pots with me or avoid me by giving me too much respect.

Pre Flop Play:

As the first player into the pot it is expected that I raise because in a tournament most players play tighter and you have a greater chance of picking up the blinds. This tightness is further exaggerated early in tournaments (FIRST LEVEL HERE) as players generally say to themselves that they are going to play only good solid cards and start off by being tight.

However this is POT limit holdem which differs from NO Limit holdem where genrally there is a sprint to get all your chips into the pot with premium hands. Because of this players when facing a pot sized bet are always getting 2/1 which makes it difficult to fold playable hands pre turn which means it can be difficult to force people off draws. Hence when you play a hand you often have to build the pot yourself by relatively sow playing some hands lik pairs in early position.

Holding pairs such as Tens or better in early position can therefore be rewarded by limping if there is a subsequent raise as it gives you an opportunity to make players who raise you make a decision for all their chips pre flop even though they may have some left over once theflop has arrived. Its a bit like making someone pay dearly if they have an inferior hand to you pre flop as usually the best hand holds up in a flop game like holdem (NB It can backfire if you get loads of limpers behind you but and no rerasie but thats life and you take your chances).

eg you limp in early position with your QQ for 50 and there is 125 in the pot. Assuming nobody else limps which can be an absolute bonus when it gets to the small blind he may raise to 225 (50 + 175) which means there is now 350 in the pot so I can re raise to 525 (175 +350) making a total of 700 in the pot. Bascially in this kind of scenario the sb loses more when he is behind than if you raised and makes the pre flop play more important when the flop comes as essentially further play committs all your chips as you each only have around 2000 with which to play.

Hence there is definitely a case for slow playing big pairs or QQ in this case from early positon in the first level of a pot limit tournament in order to build a bigger pot if someone subsequently re raises.

A final comment on the pre flop play assuming it goes down as described is to ask yourself what kind of hand the small blind has and what he thinks you have? He knows you are in early position and that you are likely to have a hand of quite a wide range of values (any pair from 88 to AA, any AT or better, or two cards suited if over a Ten if you are an aggressive good/great/well known player. However most likely as its a tournament he also knows that you as a goo/reat but not quite so aggressive player most likely have a premium hand which reduces the range somewhat because you are in ealry position and know how disadvantageous it is to play marginal or mediocre hands from that spot. This gives him more reason to re raise you with a premium hand because he may get you to re re raise with a worse hand than his. Because he is in the small blind (out of position) I believe that there are very few hands that the small blind can raise with and that these hands are AK, AA, KK, QQ (unlikely as I have the other two) and possibly JJ. With TT or 99 I would expect a call unless against a really aggressive playe like a Gus Hansen, David Benyamine or Patrick Antonius.

Flop Check:

I put my Small Blind Opponent on a hand that hit the flop unless he held JJ. It is now impossible for him/her to hold QQ as I have two of them and the board has One of them. I can't believe he re raised with something like KJ or 66 so the gutshot straight or bottom set is unrealistic. Likewise unless he is a very poor player I do not believe he has AJ or AQ (unlikely as I have the Queens) which also would not be reraising hands against an early position pre flop raiser. This leaves us with him holding AK (twelve combinations) AA (3 combinations) or KK (six combinations). With KK I think that the SB has to make some kind of mandatory bet to find ou if I have an Ace unless he want to play it like a winner and check rasie me should I bet but this brings me to another concept that I believe is relevant here because it is 2004.

Now I hear you all ask what relevance this has? Well I would say it is this.......

The poker boom has just started and is around 1-2 years old. Most people have been brought up on a diet of limit holdem and in limit holdem they have limit mentality in tht when they flop a monster (small blind holding AK or AA) they tend to check becasue they are waiting for the turn to get the chips in as in limit that is where the bigger (twice original size) bets come in. This is a mistake in big bet poker as what you want to do is win a big pot and to do that you need to bet ut when flopping something big and hope your opponent also has hit something big as in that way you win a big pot and all of an opponents chips. (I am not saying its wrong to slow play a set of aces by the small blind in this spot just trying to explain how limit thinking affects a lot of players thinking and action in pot limit and no limit).

So what do I make of my hand after the check on the flop by the small blind? I like having a set and am probably going to go broke if my opponent has top set because I can't throw my set of queens away but I am going to proceed with caution anyway and hope my opponent has an AK which is four times more likely than AA. In other words I will bet and make a decsion if the small blind calls or check raises so at least give myself some chance of getting away from my hand although in reality I think its impossible for me to do so.

I would bet around half the pot (500) or check but I am committed to going broke on this hand if necessary as I simply have to play my hnd as a winner. I am not good nough to fold although by betting 500 if my opponent then goes all in I have at least the miniscule chance of folding my set but if thinking objectively and adding the pieces of the puzzle you have to conclude that the only hand you can beat if check rasied is AK as this is one of only two hands your opponent is likely to be holding (other is AA) but its a nigh on impossible lay down.

intrested in the dact you dont reckon the unkowns dont play back at the pros with marginal hands harry

i think that reraising with KJ KT JT are possibles as some players dont respect the pros raises

apart from that i agree with your post

. Do you play the hand differently at all preflop?

no i flat call same way.

he re raise show me that more than likley he has a huge hand. i personaly fell aq minimum but unlikley because i have 2 queens and one has flopped but still a possibility. ak or aa maybe kk but i dnt think so unless hes a donkey as he would almost certainly have to bethe flop to see where he is.


Your opponent has checked the flop, what do you read into this?

there is still little info after he checks.i prob still unsure what he has at this point but. like i said he could well hav aa. 2hands are going to pay you a and aa maybe ak if he cnt put it down. the check to me is signifying strength he re raise you pre flop and now check the flop.

. If you bet, how much? And if you check, why?

dnt bet i want to trap him to thinking i am beat and hope he trys to steal the pot.

i have sneaky suspission he has   Ad Ahrt

Agree with you 100% Ironside but it goes to show how difficult any decision can be when you have little or no information about an opponent and how much easier it is when you do have something to go on. As its a WSOP event and I know little about my opponent I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and treating him as an OK player who knows something about the game and position and based on that and him being relatively tight early in a major tournament discounting him holding the weak type hands for rerasing me pre flop. Not an impossibility but extremely unlikely.

pretty much that

hopfuly the check is AQ or 6,6. if it's AA, tough. if I'm raised, I three bet it all

Hmmmm not sure why this hand is deemed worthy of discussion.  Pre flop is what I would do and the only issue is how do to get all the chips in after the flop.   

Betting half the pot seems like the way to go as we might get a call from KK hoping that we will check the turn and AA hoping that we will bet the turn......  We should get a cr from AK/Q although I would have thought that AK would c-bet.

If called a king on the turn wouldn't be the greatest card in the world, but I don't think I could fold given the stack sizes and the pot.  It would be quite a tough spot though with a 10k stack in a nl tournament.

But how likely are the first two holdings going to be out of position pre-flop re-raises?

AQ unlikely unless he's a poor player..so is 66, however there are  hands other than AA he could reraise with from his position preflop..AK, KK and all that.
I can't see anyone getting away from this..If you're scared of AA every time you flop middle set you probably should pick another game. this is one of those hands that you simply have to go bust with if the chips go in on the flop.

Sorry for the late reply to this. Here is the rest of the hand, (previous action in italics)

You pick up Qs Qd in early position and raise to 150. Folded round to the small blind who raises it 350 more. You decide to call, the Pot is 1,050.

Flop:

Qh Aspades 6c

The small blind checks. You check behind.

Turn:

2d

The small blind bets 250 into the 1,050 pot. You decide to call.

River:

5s

The small blind now moves all-in for 1,450 into the 1,550 pot. You have 1,850 back. You....?

1. How do you play the turn? Furthermore, what do you think of Mr X's play of the hand so far? If you were to play the hand differently on 4th and 5th street, what would you do and why?

2. It might be a silly question, but do you call on the river?

3. For those that don't know, who do you think Mr X is?

1; Turn doesn't change anything for you really. so after slowplaying the flo9p you have to call.

2 yes.

3; no idea...

Alll very strange...it is as if Mr X has convinced himself that SB has AA.

I bet he passed on the end.

Mr X? I know I know.....

Once I have decided to play my hand like a winner and checked behind my opponent on the flop I am going to try and get all the money into the middle despite being fearfull of my opponent having a better hand. Probably I make a small raise on the turn.

I would definitely call on the river as at no stage can I possibly put my opponent on AA with the way the betting has gone. Had I bet on the flop or raised on the turn then I would at least have had a chance to put my opponent on a better hand. Because of this I leave my opponents range of hands to be too diverse to fold at any stage and as such think Mr X has played the hand poorly. (However I'll forgive him if he folds against a super tight opponent or if he has clear evidence to suggest he plays like one from earlier hands in this first level but doubt enough time has passed to be able to formulate this opinion. eg the guy has open folded KK at least twice to a pre flop raise).

Don't know but it seems like Mr X is either Doyle Brunson or Phil Hellmuth...they both play a pretty scared/reserved type game imho but I have a slight preference for PH in this hand in the way that it is played.

This is all very strange.

Anyway. When we "check" the flop we are concealing the strength of our hand. We are doing this to get the chips in the middle. Well guess what? The chips do end up in the middle....so calling is a formality.

At the end we have the 3rd nuts.

By "slow-playing" we have only allowed 3-4 to catch up. If our opponent is Gus Hansen then this is vaguely possible and he is making what looks like a steal....with the nuts. I couldn't read that though and so have to discount it quickly.

The only other hand to worry about is the flopped set of aces. The bizarre way the hand has been played out I call here with more confidence than I had on the flop. Our opponent's actions have been inconsistent. And I always think inconsistency is suspicious....A re-raise pre-flop, a check on the flop, an under-bet on the turn and an over-bet on the river??

In our opponent's eyes we only called his pre-flop re-raise, checked the flop behind him and called his small turn bet. There is nothing to suggest he can determine the strength of our hand. We look ready to give up the pot to some extreme pressure and that's exactly what we get on the river. If our opponent has "read" us for one of the few hands that can call this bet, then this is poker of the highest order and he deserves to be paid.

But hey, he was always going to be paid if he had 3 aces.

The problem with Mr X here is that he has never made any kind of bet to find out if his opponent could be holding Aces.

His checks indicate slow playing in order to get all the chips into the middle OR that he feared his opponent had AA and if that was the case then he should have folded on the turn when facing that paltry 250 bet.

However with the stack sizes it looks nigh on impossible not to try and get all the chips into the middle and go broke if his oppponent held a better hand.

I think that although we need to be aware that a set of aces can beat us here we cannot and should not fear that eventuality.
 
The time pressures of tournament play and the relative stack sizes mean that this hand is plenty big enough to commit with. I would find it incredibly difficult to put my opponent on specifically A-A. Even if I bet to acquire information I couldn't rule out A-K, A-Q or 6-6 with enough confidence to allow me to fold here.

Although my first inclination is A-A the deck has still trapped me with this and so we should maybe ready ourselves to go and get a good steak.

Having mentioned 3-4 in an earlier post I think that this makes some sense actually. A player like Gus Hansen is capable or re-raising with ATC, he checked the flop with a view to re-raising rather than betting out and getting re-raised himself. Then when he picked up a glimmer of hope with the middle-pin draw on the turn he bet out small to control the price of the river card. The river makes the nuts and now he purposely bets out-of-context to illicit a call.

All completely un-readable of course but something to think about on your way to the bar.

I think Mr X could have made more movement on an earlier street to find out exactly how strong his opponent was. As it is, he's faced with a difficult decision where he'd be folding a monster hand to one sole holding,but he shouldn't as the potential for A-K, A-Q, 6-6 or even a crazy bluff being too strong.

The way this hand has played out I actually like the Mr X's play.  Mr X has decided that all the chips are probably going in if his opponent has a big hand, but given the shortish stacks and the pre-flop action he can afford to check the flop and still get the money in.  The advantage of checking the flop is that he shows weakness and perhaps gets some other hands to try and bluff him.

Hi, folks. The reveal to this week's Hand of the Week can be found here...

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9908 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9908)

What do you think?...

I've read Ace on The River but do not recall this hand so will go off and find it to see if I can get a little more information about the hand.

To be honet I am suprised that this is Barry Greenstein and I will ask him about this hand and his thinking when I next see him and report back.

The problem is not knowing anything about the opponent in the small blind but you do have to give the guy credit for a big hand as there is little else he is likely to repop you with before the flop especially fromt he small blind position.

However in BG's defence if you think you are behind you should fold and its as simple as that because pot odds and stack sizes in situations like this take on less significance.

OK p253 to p260 of Ace on The River.

Some relavant information (inconveniently omitted).

Never played with small blind before.

This was the small blinds third hand that he was playing and his first raise after 45 mins of the first level.

As such he was labelled a conservative player and BG puts him on AK, AA or KK

He checks tbehind o induce a bet on the turn as the Ace may have scared the small blind into checking if he held KK and feels that he would have bet if holding AK otherwise he is holding AA. So now after the check on the flop and small bet on the turn its either KK or AA for the small blind.

On the river the all in bet tells him as a conservative player the small blind must have AA so he folds.

Makes the fold a lot easier after reading his thoughts on his opponent but I'm not saying I would have done this or been able to lay the hand down.

The 250 bet on the turn changed nothing about alteing the way BG thought of what his opponent was holding.

Well a very...let's say..disciplined..fold. He was sure the other guy held aces and was proven right. I haven't read his book but unless the title of the chapter was "If you feel you're beaten just fold your monster, (after carefull consideration)" I don't think I'll be buying it anytime soon.

Agreed in a shortstack tournament this is utterly gross play and completely result orientated.  OK most players c-bet with AK- mainly for consistency because they also c-bet with 6c7c on an ace high flop, but against an unknown, you really can't base your fold on that alone and that is what he has done.

Does he not call this bet because he feels his opponent could still have A-K or K-K, then, when the all-in bet on the River arrives, he realises that this is probably unlikely and that he must be up against Aces?

I agree with Boldie and doubleup.

Greenstein's opponent has played so badly here he has forced his opponent to lay down a set of queens...A SET OF QUEENS....How has he managed not to get paid? If this player invests little or no thought into his moves then it would be no surprise to see a beaten hand at showdown.

An over-excited bluff is far from impossible. So surely there is enough doubt to call with this hand?

Don't forget that Greenstein has shown absolutely no indication that he is strong enough to call this bet, so to push on the end is just rank bad play. The sort of player who would move all-in with K-K on the river perhaps?

Of course his check on the A-high flop after his re-raise pre-flop was a complete botch-up and it just got worse from there. Whilst A-A is a possibility, and was in fact my initial inclination, there is a much, much wider range of possibilities. So whilst I'm aware A-A is out there it is not a big enough demon to stop me calling here...my god...what are you supposed to be waiting for?

Greenstein checked the flop. He concealed the strength of his hand...his opponent pushed...as planned...and then he folded? If he puts his opponent on three Aces then calling the turn bet must be one of those famous Greensein charitable donations!

Betting the flop must get better quality information than calling the turn?

To then say that the all-in on the river clearly indicates the strength of the hand is not feasable in my eyes. Our...clearly American opponent...could very well play A-K...or kings...or jacks etc...in the very same manner.

Surely an opponent who plays this badly is not going to show us the nuts every time?