Manchester Arena bombing

[SuuPRlim]

Sure, and we're all grown ups and can believe as we wish, I personally don't blame the muslim population of the world, and in particular the muslim population of the UK for the actions of 0.0001% of muslims. I also think that religion is a largely positive thing for billions of people. Also respect the fact that you think differently to me.

Let's not let this interfere with the darts world cup

[titaniumbean]

Just done some more research, EVERY SINGLE TERRORIST ATTACK in the last 20 years (and I've doubled checked) was committed by someone with at least one foot.

I think we should lock up everyone in the world with at least one foot. Cut the problem off RIGHT at the source imo.

I see where you are going, next you will be locking up everyone with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs 

[SuuPRlim]

Just done some more research, EVERY SINGLE TERRORIST ATTACK in the last 20 years (and I've doubled checked) was committed by someone with at least one foot.

I think we should lock up everyone in the world with at least one foot. Cut the problem off RIGHT at the source imo.

I see where you are going, next you will be locking up everyone with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs 

Yep. I know how to spot a troublemaker

[titaniumbean]

I feel like quoting my last ranty rant at Evilpie.


What a shock. very little information at all has been released of any substance, yet our previous home secretary of 6 years who is now PM is instantly pushing for destroying the internet. She sure understands it.

How very shocking and effective. I'm sure she'll change her mind if it turns out that they didn't use encryption of any kind like Brussels etc..........

[MintTrav]

Just done some more research, EVERY SINGLE TERRORIST ATTACK in the last 20 years (and I've doubled checked) was committed by someone with at least one foot.

I think we should lock up everyone in the world with at least one foot. Cut the problem off RIGHT at the source imo.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/750786/Islamic-State-ISIS-video-disabled-suicide-bombers-wheelchairs-Mosul-explosion-executions

[teddybloat]

Ever heard of a little incident known as the Halocoast? 6 million people were ordered to be executed by a christian man because they were Jewish.

This is not quite true. I don't think one can characterise Hitler as a Christian man (more paganist beliefs).

hilter himself identified as a christian man. he says in the first chapter of mein kampf that he is doing god's work in killing jews, every officer of his party had to swear a declaration that began 'i swear by almighty god' and the first treaty made by the national socialist was with the Vatican whereby the roman catholic church was allowed to control german religious eductation. saying hitler wasnt someone who was inspired by his god is wrong.

likewise with the recent terrorist attacks you cant gloss over religion as if it is a mere coincidence in these murders, that its significance is on a par with the presence of feet or fingers.

The people carrying out these attacks believe they are doing gods work.

it absolutely is islamic terrorism, and is an attack on western democracy, liberalism and freedom.

I value those things dearly, and i think that those of us on the liberal / left need to stop coming up with trite analogies that try to explain away the ideology at the heart of this murder as being a mere by product or extraneous characteristic of the murderers - steam from the engine if you like.

radical islam is the fuel and if not the prime mover of this murder. and we should acknowledge that and be willing to confront it.

[MANTIS01]

Several similar attacks in quick succession now. I wonder what happens if they become even more frequent? Suicide bombers walking into primary schools for max effect? I think we can all agree this is a very serious problem, a growing problem without any kind of obvious solution. So we do indeed live in scary times. It's unfortunate Islam is being used as the vehicle for these attacks but nonetheless it is the vehicle and we do need to understand how to solve that part. If attacks become more regular, more serious, hostility to muslims will surely grow, in fact even now I see the actual President of America banning muslims and European governments banning the burqa.

So what's our plan to stop more attacks? We can talk about all the plots we've foiled but over recent times the terrorists are having major success. Sure, in theory the % of crazy terrorists is miniscule but in the real world today they are devastatingly effective at what they're doing. I can only imagine the fist-pumping that went on in team terrorist when the twin towers came down. I was amazed to read that the Manchester terrorist had a remote on his device but chose to die because this really presents the complexity of the problem. How do you stop somebody brainwashing somebody else? And what worldly goods do you offer the guy who's motivated by virgins in heaven? I guess friends and family informing authorities will be vital if they suspect extremist views and that info must be treated with the highest priority, big prison sentences, internet restrictions, press censorship, even a reduction of the civil liberties we've held so dear? If anti-muslim emotion grows and basic freedoms erode I can only imagine how angry the finger-wagging liberals are going to become. 

[SuuPRlim]

Teddy I agree that Islamic terrorism is a big issue, no-body can dispute that.

What I can dispute, and do dispute is that MUSLIMS or RELIGION is the problem, Muslims, Islam and Religion is not the problem, terrorists and extremists are the problem and every religionand set of beliefs has them. Obviously, we're confronted more with Islamic extremism than anything in recent times so it seems (and it is to a certain extent) more prevalent.

I was out in a pub last night less than 15 minutes from where that took place, just meeting some friends minding my own business not causing any harm to anyone and yet was unknowingly in some very real danger, and I am sure that there were also many good, decent muslim people in exactly the same boat as me.

[SuuPRlim]

Just done some more research, EVERY SINGLE TERRORIST ATTACK in the last 20 years (and I've doubled checked) was committed by someone with at least one foot.

I think we should lock up everyone in the world with at least one foot. Cut the problem off RIGHT at the source imo.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/750786/Islamic-State-ISIS-video-disabled-suicide-bombers-wheelchairs-Mosul-explosion-executions

Need to fact-check better. My bad.

[nirvana]

Ever heard of a little incident known as the Halocoast? 6 million people were ordered to be executed by a christian man because they were Jewish.

This is not quite true. I don't think one can characterise Hitler as a Christian man (more paganist beliefs).

Thinking about this in religious terms isn't helpful really - many of the most genocidal regimes/people were not underpinned by religious beliefs - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al. If we're going to section people with religious convictions we might as well lock up all atheists while we're at it, just in case like.

It's more about dogmatism

You're undoutabley correct, the main basis of my point though was in reaction to Exstreams post which satirically suggested last nights horrors could never have been committed by a white christian and inferred that Muslims are responsible for all the terror acts.

Went for a big, somewhat vague example to back my point up, sacrificing a little accuracy in the process

 

Yep. I know you were just countering some of the pure race driven stuff

[nirvana]

Ever heard of a little incident known as the Halocoast? 6 million people were ordered to be executed by a christian man because they were Jewish.

This is not quite true. I don't think one can characterise Hitler as a Christian man (more paganist beliefs).

hilter himself identified as a christian man. he says in the first chapter of mein kampf that he is doing god's work in killing jews, every officer of his party had to swear a declaration that began 'i swear by almighty god' and the first treaty made by the national socialist was with the Vatican whereby the roman catholic church was allowed to control german religious eductation. saying hitler wasnt someone who was inspired by his god is wrong.

likewise with the recent terrorist attacks you cant gloss over religion as if it is a mere coincidence in these murders, that its significance is on a par with the presence of feet or fingers.

The people carrying out these attacks believe they are doing gods work.

it absolutely is islamic terrorism, and is an attack on western democracy, liberalism and freedom.

I value those things dearly, and i think that those of us on the liberal / left need to stop coming up with trite analogies that try to explain away the ideology at the heart of this murder as being a mere by product or extraneous characteristic of the murderers - steam from the engine if you like.

radical islam is the fuel and if not the prime mover of this murder. and we should acknowledge that and be willing to confront it

I take yr ticket on this mostly (with the exception of the Hitler is a christian motif) and I would like to think it's compatible to embrace multiculturalism here whilst attacking IS and being completely intolerant of hate preachers and the like.

[teddybloat]

"What I can dispute, and do dispute is that MUSLIMS or RELIGION is the problem"

religion isnt the problem, but it a problem

if we pause for thought surely any serious person will see that a credulous mindset that outsources its moral code to a 2000 year old text - a text that was written centuries after the fact and was handed down orally as the people in the story were illiterates -  isnt something we should promote.

a mindset that believes in both vicarious redemption and the concept of heaven - wrongs that can be attoned for by others and good deeds that can be rewarded in the afterlife

now those mindsets we might feel are benign. but i  would argue they are pernicious.

when the books that they draw their moral code from aren't conclusively against religious war, genocide, murder jihad etc etc - people can and do use these books to justify murder, rape, slavery etc -  thats when they can be dangerous.

a truly religious person is capable of anything.

the following two conditions:

there is no right and wrong outside of god.

AND

there is no objective and clear guide as to what god thinks

mean:

if you're a rabbi and you believe that god likes young boys penises to be mutilated, then you do the decent thing and circumcise as many boys as you can

if you are a christian and you believe god doesn't like men buggering each other then you try to suppress the gay rights movement

if you are a muslim and believe god wants you to kill western children then you strap a bomb to your chest and wait by the exits of a concert aimed at teenage girls

there isnt much choice here. once you truly believe god is the source of morailty its a mere matter of interpretation as to how you act.

religion is a problem for secular western society - even in its most beneign form it gives dignity and appereance of stoicism to what is a morally weak mindset

[muckthenuts]

Good posts Dave. Widespread alienation of people who are mostly just living the life they are born into due to the actions of fanatics would be a very scary consequence.

Literally nobody outside of ISIS likes ISIS. You have to say they are Muslim by definition, but they are the most hated group in the Muslim world.

[SuuPRlim]

"What I can dispute, and do dispute is that MUSLIMS or RELIGION is the problem"

religion isnt the problem, but it a problem

if we pause for thought surely any serious person will see that a credulous mindset that outsources its moral code to a 2000 year old text - a text that was written centuries after the fact and was handed down orally as the people in the story were illiterates -  isnt something we should promote.

a mindset that believes in both vicarious redemption and the concept of heaven - wrongs that can be attoned for by others and good deeds that can be rewarded in the afterlife

now those mindsets we might feel are benign. but i  would argue they are pernicious.

when the books that they draw their moral code from aren't conclusively against religious war, genocide, murder jihad etc etc - people can and do use these books to justify murder, rape, slavery etc -  thats when they can be dangerous.

a truly religious person is capable of anything.

the following two conditions:

there is no right and wrong outside of god.

AND

there is no objective and clear guide as to what god thinks

mean:

if you're a rabbi and you believe that god likes young boys penises to be mutilated, then you do the decent thing and circumcise as many boys as you can

if you are a christian and you believe god doesn't like men buggering each other then you try to suppress the gay rights movement

if you are a muslim and believe god wants you to kill western children then you strap a bomb to your chest and wait by the exits of a concert aimed at teenage girls

there isnt much choice here. once you truly believe god is the source of morailty its a mere matter of interpretation as to how you act.

religion is a problem for secular western society - even in its most beneign form it gives dignity and appereance of stoicism to what is a morally weak mindset

What I said directly after the part of my post you quoted was that terrorists and extremists are the problem, which is basically exactly what you said in this, very eloquent and well thought out by the way, response. I guess your point is that the true danger of religion is that its very nature makes it a great voice for radicalisation, if you can convince people that they are following a divine course of action then you could (and we know its possible) convince to do things that any sane of mind person would think is horrendous. I concede that is very difficult to argue with and I certainly can't.

As a counter I will say that the people that mis-use religion make up such a minuscule portion of those exposed to it, that you might be able to say such people could be radicalised by other things too. For the overwhelming majority of people practising religion it encourages them to live a good, honest, peaceful life, doing harm to no-one and respecting the beliefs of others.

There are lots of people in the world who find some much solace in their belief in God that it would be utterly inhumane to tell them they are "crazy" or "should be locked up" when they do no-one any harm and are living their lives peacefully

[nirvana]

I've watched my fair share of anti islam speeches and debates. I've also watched a lot of interviews with Muslims acting as apologists for the crimes and barbarism of other Muslims and find their lack of unequivocal condemnation of unspeakable acts to be demoralising.

I've generally steered clear of this thread because I find it hard to articulate a worthwhile view, in a few sentences. It's so complex and multi faceted and heavily influenced by a long historical context embracing, religion and geopolitics.

I do find some hope for the future in addresses like this