General Fighting thread

[scotty2hatty]

gogogogogogogogo Bisping

[scotty2hatty]

Abs destroyed him - incred performance imo.  Totally owned him.

[stereoman]

General summary from watching that:

* The stoppage in the Werdum-Vera fight was kind of suspect but I can't blame the referee in erring on the side of caution.
* Nate Marquardt is a fool. He had that fight won but two mistakes let him down. How did one judge score a win in his favour with TWO points deducted because Nate hit Thales in the back on the head?
* Jason Day didn't even try. He beat Alan Belcher comfortably and he gives away free hits to Michael Bisping? Absolutely suspect.
* Catchweight helped Alves. Hughes seemingly couldn't cope.

[AdamM]

what do you mean by suspect? You're not suggesting Jason Day took a dive?

The weight wasn't why Hughes couldn't cope. He's way past his best. Serra then retire.


Don't think I got many picks right.

UFC 85 picks
Alves to beat Hughes TKO round 2
Bisping to beat Day TKO round 2
Davies to beat Swick Late TKO or decision, but I expect a war
Marquart to beat Leites decision
Werdum to beat Vera TKO round 3
Rivera to beat Kampmann by decision
Tavares to beat Wiman by decision or late submission
Lambert to beat Cane TKO round 3
Liaudin to beat Taylor submission round 3 after a stand up war.
Sanchez to beat Hordonk by decision

got the headline bang on the money. Alves v GSP will be a fantastic fight and Alves has a chance.
Bisping TKO, just earlier than I thought. Leben next hopefuly or Nate Quarry, then Franklin/Henderson, then Title shot.
Got the war but swick deserved the win.
Marquart did enough to get the decision if it weren't for the points deductions. I gave Leites round 1 but Marquart might of deserved 9-8 rounds for the other two so it could of been 27-26 Marquart.
I have some sympathy for Vera on the stoppage, but he was in a bad spot. a better ref would of let it go, but Mazagatti would of stopped it sooner. I'll take TKO Werdum though.
Kampmann looked good on the ground. impressive win.
Underestimated Wiman. Nice KO by him
Cane is one to watch. made light work of Lambert, who's a tough opponent.
Taylor got a split decision over Liaudin. I'll be looking for that on the net because I bet it was a blinder.
Hardonk's KO of Sanchez was a beauty.

3/10 not very good but a couople of them were close.
watched UFC 38 straight after on DVD. Hughs v Newton when Hughes was at his most dominant. totally different fighter. Mark Weirs 12 second KO of Eugine Jackson, and Ian Freeman beating the living shit out of unbeaten UFC poster boy Frank Mere. vintage stuff.

[stereoman]

Jason did a damn good impression of someone who didn't want to win. I'm not impressed by Bisping at all. Day didn't even try and defend himself properly. The real Day showed up against Belcher. Day didn't turn up on Saturday night. Day isn't a world-beater but he's much better than that.

Alves was physically bigger and stronger than Hughes on the night and in a catchweight fight the bigger guy usually wins. Hughes past his best? Can't disagree really and I suppose his age has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't say he'd be back to his best though if he beats Serra but hey, at least Hughes could finish his career on a high note. 

OT: I don't know what to make of a proposed George St Pierre-Thiago Alves match-up if GSP beats Jon Fitch.

[scotty2hatty]

I'm not impressed by Bisping at all.

Why?

[stereoman]

Well I've already said that Day gave Bisping free hits and that Day wasn't too bothered about defending himself properly against Bisping.

I'm not a Bisping basher by any means who'd say that the fight against Rashad Evans showed Bisping up (it did but it was a mismatch of strength for one thing) but generally he has been fed opponents that have been beatable (Eric Schafer, Elvis Sinosic, Charles McCarthy and now Jason Day) since emerging from a mediocre crop of light heavyweights in 'The Ultimate Fighter 3'. Bisping was lucky to get that questionable decision against Matt Hamill.

On the whole surely no one can be impressed by Bisping or his performance on Saturday night? He got the job done against a fighter who didn't want to fight back.

I haven't seen anything to suggest why anyone should be impressed by Michael Bisping. Why should anyone be impressed by Michael Bisping? I'm not saying he's a fraud but he hasn't shown anything to impress me.

Where is he in UFC's middleweight pecking order? I think he's probably at least four fights away in getting a title shot.

UFC have got a British fighter that a British crowd can get behind and it wouldn't surprise that the 10,000+ crowd there on Saturday night were mostly because of Bisping but that's a bit EliteXC/Kimbo Slice. Good for UFC. Good that Britain has a guy they can root for (well it's either him or Paul Taylor who doesn't get airtime). Is it deserved though?

[AdamM]

sorry mate, but with respect, I totally diagree with almost everything you're saying.

Bisping was head and shoulders above the rest of TUF3, and beat Josh Haynes easily in the final. Hamill was the only exception, but that was down to ox strength, rather than technical ability. He suprised Bisping (and everyone else) beating Bisping to the punch in round 1 of their fight and did a lot of damage. Bisping got his timing in rounds 2 & 3 and the correct score could either of been 28 - 28 or 29 -28 Bisping. There is no argument for Hamill IMO.

Before that he beat the shit out of Schafer and Sinosic who, while not top level fighters, are no mugs and would be a stiff test for any new fighter.
Against Evans he gave a decent account of himself but got out wrestled by a stronger, world class wrestler. No shame there.
At middle weight he's fought twice in 8 weeks. First he breaks Charles McCarthy's arm, throwing 20 knees in 10 seconds and retires him from the sport, then he mauls Jason Day who had no way of stopping him. He may have made a better account of himself against Belcher, but I think Bisping's showing himself to be a higher class than that. It's not that Day didn't want to fight back, it's that Bisping hit him bloody hard and he knew he was in trouble from the first meaningful exchange.

I agree he's about 3 / 4 fights away from a shot. I talked to him at Seni08 and he thinks the same. As I've said, expect Leben to be rescheduled, then probably another similar level guy like Quarry. then he'll have to get through Franklin and/or Henderson before he gets Silva. He knows he's no where near ready for Silva and why shouldn't he be fed fighters of gradually increasing ability. That's how the fight game's always worked.

Apart from great ability in all aspects of the game (increasingly including his wrestling) he's also a really nice bloke and deserves the respect and support of MMA fans. I don't know if he (or anyone else) will ever take the belt from Silva (he may relinquish it and move on after a few more defences) but I'll certainly enjoy watching him try. To answer your ranking question, ability, top 10, marketability, top 5

As for Hughes, Alves. You can't seriously say that, even in the modern UFC, 4lb is a factor. I've just watched UFC 1 - 20 back to back and I've watched people win fights giving away up to 400lb. The skill level is so much higher now, so I do accept that a stone or two is a major factor, but if Alves had made the cut he'd still have beaten Hughes.

I've been watching Alves closely since he knocked the snot out of Tony De Souza, and Karo Parisian is a top welterweight and Alves destroyed him. GSP is a phenominon, but Alves could give him a lot of problems standing. I think GSP will be looking to wrestle him, but Alves will be the stronger man and has a decent ground game of his own. Intriguing match up.

[stereoman]

Bisping was head and shoulders above the rest of TUF3? I did say he emerged from a mediocre crop of light heavyweights so surely we don't disagree here? LOL! Was that the bit where you agreed with me!?

Charles McCarthy's emergence as a winner from 'The Ultimate Fighter 4' was even worse and to have UFC put Bisping up against him was an odd match-up what with Charles being smaller in height and weight. A more discerning MMA watcher would wonder why Bisping was fed something like McCarthy (Captain Miserable indeed!) as it proved to be a complete mismatch whilst the more casual fan just wanted to see Bisping beat someone up.

Bisping got the decision against Hamill and Michael has the last laugh whatever detractors might say. The Evans vs Bisping aftermath though was an oddity as I'm pretty sure the hype was that they were supposed to be amongst the 'top ten light heavyweights' at the time. Bisping moving down a weight division is fortuitous as Bisping is likely never going to face someone with as much 'power' again. To Michael's credit Rashad never really seemed to trouble him though but Evans did enough to get the win on points.

You have to be having a laugh to say that Eric Schafer or Elvis Sinosic are not mugs even for a 'new' fighter. If you're touted as being any good you better be able to beat guys like them.

Don't get me wrong #1: I'm not saying that he should be fighting the likes of Anderson Silva right now. That's just a stupid thing to say. Bisping is good (certainly better than five of the seven fighters he's faced. I haven't said that he isn't good as all I've said is he hasn't impressed me.) but he isn't ready yet for a title shot.

Don't get me wrong #2:  I would love as a British viewer to see someone British do well in MMA. I don't know if that guy's Michael Bisping but the UFC are giving him a helluva promotional push. Feeding Bisping fighters of increasing ability is one thing to build up a fighter's reputation (of course, that's a given! Look at Amir Khan over in boxing! I'm not expecting Bisping to be having a shot against the likes of Silva, Henderson or even Franklin or Marquardt right now but given the hype he should be fighting someone just slightly below their level) but I still maintain that Jason Day didn't even try on Saturday night. Bisping in a different class to Alan Belcher? Moot as we'll probably never know. I think that'd be a helluva fight as a contrast in styles though.

The fight against Chris Leben if it's still on will be interesting. I'd love to see Bisping prove me wrong and win with absolute conviction.

Where do I see Bisping in UFC's middleweight divison? Top 15 and outside the top 10. Who are the people I'd put ahead of Bisping right now? Anderson, Henderson, Franklin, Okami, Kampmann, Maia, Marquardt, Leites (by default), Leben, Quarry and even Jason MacDonald. A few of the MMA power lists online updated after UFC 85 put Bisping just outside the top 5. I can't see Bisping beating Kampmann, Maia, Marquadt or Leites right now and I'd put him borderline top 10 at best.

The marketability of the guy is odd but British fans have taken to Michael Bisping as their go-to guy when it comes to UFC. The prominent promotion of him by the UFC has helped a lot.. I'm sure there's a few Cage Rage guys looking on with absolute envy.

The MMA game's moved on since the early days of UFC 1-20 (thank God!) as they were bloody freak shows in comparison to the techniques and skills employed by MMA combatants of now.

Don't try to keep pinning me on this point of four pounds in regards Alves because after the weigh-in you can put as much weight on afterwards as you want!

I'm not saying Hughes would have had more of a chance if Alves did make weight (I didn't say that!). Alves being closer to his natural weight helped Thiago even more though as Hughes clearly couldn't cope and I would argue that Hughes who was already at a disadvantage was further disadvantaged. Hughes was the huge favourite coming in but that's by bookies who didn't know any better (look over at 2+2 forums and some of the pre-fight analysis over there! Hell of a mix!). I'm just saying that the guy who's heavier in a catchweight fight usually wins (the best example of this is over in boxing where Diego Corrales lost the second fight against Jose Luis Castillo when not too long ago Corrales beat Castillo quite controversially in the first fight).

[AdamM]

now that was a much bigger mix of agree and disagree. Some interesting observations. we're certainly both interested to see how he copes as he moves up the division. I doubt he'll get anymore easy fights. It'll be top 10 opponents from now on.

I hope you'll join me in doing some UFC 86 predictions, in fact I'm going to have a look at the card as it stands now.

[AdamM]

my mistake, it's TUF Finale first

Tanner v Grove. I'd LOVE to see Tanner win this. the man is an absolute legend and win or loose, his fights are usually thrillers. depends which Kendall Grove shows up on the night. Tanner by TKO (with my heart, rather than my brain)

Sanchez to beat Fioravanti submission

Irvine v Horne could be brilliant or boring. likely to be fought almost exclusively on the groud. I'm going to go for Irvine late submission.

nothing else from the card jumps out at me.

UFC 86
this looks like a better card already

Jackson v Griffin. I actually give Forrest the edge in this. I think he'll have the advantage on the feet and will have been working heavily on his take down defence for this fight. Randy Couture is not a bad sparing partner to prepare for this fight.

Cote to beat  Almeida by TKO
Stephenson to submit Tibau
Would love to see Lytle knock Koschecks head off, but my guess is Koscheck decision (lay and pray win)
Tyson Griffin decision (as usual) over Aurelio
Miller TKO over Gurgel
Guillard to KO Siver
Hill TKO Buchholz
Saunders submit Rollins

[stereoman]

Not to further prolong the discussion on the pros and cons of Michael Bisping but I think we've had a far more healthy discussion on the matter than say over at Sherdog's forums. The folks from the UK are doing us no favours by generally hurling childish insults but the hate is absolutely inane. There are a few gems of worthwhile negative and positive points in there if you can bear to read the 25 pages or so but I think we've generally both covered it (today was the first time I've read that thread and it's s'funny to go over there and find there are similar viewpoints to both you and me!).

For the record I don't think Michael Bisping is overrated and I certainly don't hate him even if I haven't particularly demonstrated that.

Handicapping MMA is a helluva task because of the occasional variance.

A lot of fights for The Ultimate Fighter 7 finale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Fighter_7

I'm not going to lie as I haven't bothered to watch much of this series so I haven't got too much relevant opinion or perspective on the outcomes of those fights.

UFC 86 has a generally good card: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_86

Just to go quickly with some picks and at this point in time I'd go with: Jackson (but not without some surprising difficulty), Cote, Stevenson, Koscheck (like you I'd like to see Lytle win instead though) and Griffin. On the preliminary bouts: Gurgel, Guillard, Hill, Wilson and Gonzaga.

I think the only surprise of the night will be Forrest Griffin giving Rampage a helluva fight but not win.

OT: Paul Daley will be back against Bojan Kosednar on July 12th.

http://www.mmafrenzy.com/2008/06/09/paul-daley-to-headline-cwfc-enter-the-rough-house-7-on-july-12th/

[AdamM]

I've tried MMA forums but the testosterone is out of control. I do most of my MMA chat with my training partners. I put my picks up here out of habit now.

The latest TUF doesn't look to have any Silva worriers amongst them.

[Grier78]

Just managed to watch this, congrats to Bisping I think he is much better at 185. Happy to see Hughes get his face smashed and also Swick quite easily beat Davies.

[jun_fan_lee]

Thoughts on Kimbo? Big puncher that's about it I think, also I lol at people who think he could be a contender in the heavyweight division of boxing.

Bruce Lee in UFC? I think he'd be unstoppable. He would need to adapt his style but he was a pioneer of his own mix martial art so he could def have adapted.