blonde poker forum

This hand is from the UKIPT £1k Main Event in Brighton. The hand occurs in level 1 of day 1, around about 15 mins in, so no reads on table.

Blinds are 25/50. Everyone is pretty much playing their starting stack of 15000. MP raises to 150, hijack calls. I'm in the cut off with 33, and decide to call as well. Button also calls.

Flop is A83 rainbow. MP checks, hijack decides to bet (something in the region of 300-400), I call with my set, and button also comes along for the ride.

Turn is an 8, the board now showing 2 hearts. Hijack checks, so I decide to bet 800. Button calls, and hijack folds. Anyone check here?

River comes 9 of hearts, completing the flush. I decide to bet 2100. Button thinks for a moment, and then raises to around 6500. I puke. What would you do in this spot?

It's difficult to say what I put the button on, on the turn, to be honest. I was discounting an 8 to be honest, since I doubt he would overcall the flop with 8x? He obviously could have A8 though. I would say that's the only likely 8x holding. He could have backdoored a flush, and be raising for value on the river, thinking I have an 8? Like I said, there's no reads on villain at the moment, he's just a young guy with his hood on. One key bit of information is that I'm not 100% if the Ace on board was a heart or not. I was told later it wasn't, but again, it's not 100%. 

So, critique the play guys! Will post results and other info after some replies.

If it's not the Ahrt you have to call.

im confused

+1

This makes a fair bit of difference to the hand.

Dunno that I could fold here, even though it does look like a puke spot.

We're getting like 3:2 on a call, does he have 89s/A8s/quad eights 60%+ of the time? Too likely he could have a flush for me, he might have pealed with x8hh suited connectors or Axhh assuming that's possible.

Sigh that A8s makes a lot of sense though.

Never checking the turn btw...

Sunny this isn't a puke spot- he may raise worse but it being level 1 I would just call. If he had A8 or a bigger boat it's just a cooler and you should deffo bet turn to build a pot. You played it fine. I may check the river once the heart hits but only to get it in which might be a mistake this early

 Why would the button raise the river on that board? I would say 98, A8 or 88 are very likely holdings for villian. It's a tough one to fold, and i would almost certainly not be able to do it, but i think that the correct move is FOLD.
 ps-I flopped quad eights in a live game last week, which was nice :)

My thought process,

[ x ] Spose I could be behind.

[   ] Folding

I want to bet more on the turn. You've bet half-pot, I think. Looks too milky to me, want to bet more against two oppos to build a bigger pot

15 mins into the tournament it's impossible to know what villain can be holding. I mean it looks like A-8 or 8-9 to me and that's what I'd expect villain to show when I snapped the river. Then again I wouldn't be all that surprised to see a naked 8, AK, flush, spaz bluff...this early who knows how villain values his hands? I'm betting the turn for value as well. Folding a full house vs 1 unknown in the early donk stage of a live tournament isn't a consideration. Just take the cooler like a man and move on.

Very much this.

Not folding here

I know this wont be the conensus due to  "losing value" but I check/call these spots early in tournies, for 2 reasons, first and obv, you might be beat, but also some people like to go big or go home in the early levels and will happily bluff this river, and therefore i prefer to bluff catch than get myself into a spot.

i like your line. Im never checking the turn, and prob call as played.

Bet more on turn, can't fold here

+1

call and say "i shudve went broke this hand if u didnt try trappy trappy on the flop"

Dittio.

It's pretty clear that the consensus was to bet call the river then, while some saying check call? Well obviously, I went against the masses, and folded the river. I had no reads at the time, and I found it very difficult to believe that villain would be raising here with 8x (not A8/98 obvs) or the flush here for value. I figured A8 or pocket 88 to be the most likely holding in this spot, so opted for the fold.

As play progressed, his plays made me regret the fold. He was doing some weird stuff, and then this hand occurs between villain and Jake Cody. Villain has opened a couple of times since antes kicked in, and Jake has three bet him twice, and villain has folded.

Villain opens again from cut off, playing somewhere in the region of 18k - 20k. (Blinds 150-300-25). Jake 3 bets from the small, and villain peels. Flop comes QQ4, Jake c bets, villain calls. Turn comes a 4, and Jake checks. Villain jams, and Jake calls with A4. Villain tables J10 off.

Seems like bet folding a house on the river in the first level of a reasonable size buy in and reasonable strength field tournament can't be a good thing, but I didn't think it was the right call this time. Obviously, whatever the result, I don't want to be results orientated, and I wanted to discuss the hand so I know what the best line would be in the long run. Will post result after some more replies.

He won't have been thinking about your potential holding probably just thinking he can rep a flush on river and get you to fold ax hands

this, your hand is pretty under-repped imo which means more reason to call

Don't think you can really fold and definitely never checking turn or river. Check calling the river misses major value imo when he checks back all of his Ax 'cos the flush got there. Lead the turn bigger aswell. Stacks are deep and we wanna get as much in the pot as possible. I don't think that theres really anything that he's calling 800 with but folding for 1100ish

This, he can turn Ax into a bluff himself, especially if he has Ahrt.

FWIW i am betting slightly more on the turn (never checking) and bet call the river 100%

FWIW, villain later told me he had A8 in that hand. I mean obviously there's no reason for me not to believe him.

I thought it was a pretty interesting, yet awful, hand to be in. I am actually quite surprised about how many people, like all of you, have said it's a call rather than a fold. Think it speaks volumes about my game, and I'll probably have to do something to get back into it! Did have like a 2 month off period though, but was hoping it would do my game good, rather than bad!

what % of the time do people shove?

I dont think id ever shove unless the villian is a complete mongrel...

lol love the word mongrel

I pretty much was never considering shoving in this spot. Not saying I wouldn't ever, but not in this spot.

im not a big fan of folding ever really because i want to see the villians cards lol

really cool fold imo

a big +1

if the dirty nit in question was big charra then snap muck the flop unless ur a bird in which case call, bink a 3 and stack the mug

Your hand is hugely underepped imo, turn bet def needs to be larger so as we can get more in on the river.

On the river some live donks will be bluffing/over valuing binked/repped flushes here, they will be either trying to get value from an ace or bluff you off such holdings, even sometimes a random hope to push you off a random 8.

Im never folding here, and gen wld be only concerned about not getting full value from flushes and similar by not jamming river and just opting 4 the showdown flat of the 6.5k.

His raise isn't because he believes you have a house, it's either because he has a flush or wants to rep 1 imo.

Fistpump snap for me.

I'm pleased that others believe that it was a good fold. You examined all of the info available and came to the conclusion that you were behind, and, correctly, folded your full house. Surely, it's being able to make folds like these that seperate the good from the great players? WP.

You don't know it was a correct fold, just because the villan claimed he 'had it'.

The info available was surely indicating massively towards a call, i mean i for one wld never check this river, yet if i did ever intend to fold to a rr, which i wldnt, then surely a ck call is the best option here.

We arent betting for info, it's for value simples.

By donk folding folding the river we are turning a very strong holding with excellent showdon into a bluff here.

Polarizing the guys range to bigger houses just seems way too nitty 4 me, and surely when u underep yr hand as such esp on the flop, u actually want to induce this river rse.

It's not texas fold em, i strongly disagree that such a fold seperates a great player from a good one.

Sorry if my tone sounds harsh, that's just my usual way of talking about hands, guess i cld do with sounding more humble.

No problem Nico. Constuctive criticism is always good as far as i'm concerned. I just found this hand, and the replies extremely  interesting. I got the impression that some of the posters were saying, he's probably got it-but you have to call anyway. My thought was that, if you think that you're very likely to be behind, then sometimes it's best to go with your gut feeling, hopefully, having conciously and sub-conciously wieghed up the available info.
 The other thing that maybe influenced my thought process was the particular scenario ie-early doors, £1100 comp. I have to admit that i've never played in a poker tournament at this level, maybe i'm over-estimating the standard of play at this level. I just couldn't see villian not having the goods.
 ps-i am a nit/ rock-but i'm trying to change my ways. :)

TBH the most ridic thing about this is that you believed him when he told you he had A8 Sunny. He probably raises you on the flop with A8 cos he's scared of the flush draw. People lie all the time. They never say "No if you go all in I fold" or "No I didn't have it that time I was bluffing"

He's probs told you he had A8 and then behind your back think ZOMG I had a 7 high flush and he folded a boat!

even if he had QUADS it might still have been a bad fold.

He didn't say his hand at the table. He told me when everyone had left for a break, two breaks after the actual hand. Obviously, I'm not saying I believe him 100%, but I don't have any reason to doubt him. But because I'm not 100% sure, that was part of the reason for this thread. I wanted to see what everyone else thought of the hand, and if people call his raise on the end, or even jam on the end.

I really thought at the time, with no reads, this kid isn't raising half his stack here in a £1k comp without having me beat. I didn't recognise the guy, so kind of assumed this is a fairly big size comp for him. Btw, think his name was Liam Atkinson, overheard at cash desk, but not sure.

Do people think it's unwise to put villains on specific hands, rather than calling against a range?

Yeah, I would say putting a player on one specific hand with no reads after meeting him 15 mins ago is unwise.

one hand is a hand range

unfortunately there wasnt one hand in his range here and you should have called.  also agree with g2l that he was lying

I don't know if it's always unwise. I agree here is probably not the correct situation, but as a standalone question, I think it's a valid question that shouldn't simply be discounted based on the fact we only met him 15 mins ago and have no reads.

ok as a stand alone question I think it's unwise vs anybody in a HU pot. You can be married for 20 yrs and still can't say at any given time exactly what your wife's thinking. We are levelling ourselves if we think we can nail exactly what a relative stranger is doing at any given time. Especially considering the game is based on deception.

I agree.

Nice level - making the blonde world think you fold sets tho sunny ;)

I've been sussed!!

must be something about folding a set of 3s. New hero fold!

not folding here sunny. i mean sometimes he might show you quads but that'd be awfully difficult for him to have because there are only 4 8's in a deck of cards :p

lol funny as ..........

Finally somone contributes some applicable mathematical analysis to the hand
wp