blonde poker forum

I recently started playing $100 NL cash games having played Limit (5/10) up to now.  The following hand higlighted an issue for me regarding calling large raises with a top pair/top kicker hand.

I have $88 in seat 7 and hold  Ad Qs.
UTG (seat 2) raises to $4.
Loose aggressive player (65% VP$IP, 10% raise PF, 3.5 AF) calls in seat 5, seat 6 calls, SB calls BB completes.

Flop is  4s  Qc  3h.  Pot is $24.

All check to me and I lead out for $15.  Folds around to the LAG player in seat 7 who calls.  Now heads up.

Turn  4h.  Pot is $54.

LAG checks.  I bet $30.  LAG moves all in.  It is going to cost me $39 to win a $123 pot.

Given the preflop raise it is hard to put a single 4 in my opponents hand.  He could have called with 44 or 33 in which case I am toast but why go all in on the turn if he has me on a single pair ?  I can't believe he would flat call with QQ - AA with 6 players yet to act.  AQ, KQ, & QJ are also possibilities.  If he had a Q and the flush draw that would explain the all in but I would have expected him move in before I committed any more chips, which could pot commit me.

I have noticed since I started playing NL cash games that large overbets and all in moves normally mean strength rather than weakness (at least on Pacific).  It seems that once certain players make a big hand they bet big and don't seem to care if they drive everyone out of the pot.  The policy I adopted was not to get too attached to top pair hands if there is a lot of strong betting.  On any given board you could be facing 2 pair or a set.  Calling off your whole stack with TPTK in the hope your opponent is weak, drawing or bluffing requires a better reading of players than I have.   

Given that I had taken the lead in this pot and bet strongly the obvious move would be to fold.  I have represented a Q and his all-in bet says he can beat it.  He may be semi bluffing with a Q and a flush draw but I can't see it being a complete bluff.  He flat called a decent sized bet on the flop with no possible draws on the flop so he must have something.

I guess my basic question is:
If you are facing a large raise from an opponent, where you have already represented strength in the hand, how strong does your own hand need to be to call or re-raise. 
(I know "it depends" but assume you can't put your loose unpredictable opponent on a hand, you have TPTK, and the raise is for a large portion of your stack)

Any opinions appreciated.

Id love to give a decent answer but Im too much of a fish to say anything but call :D.

I think most likely is 33 or 44 and hes putting you on a suited Q, his allin says I want the pot right now because I dont want you to hit a backdoor heart draw.

He is loose enough to play A4 this way possibly, and is perhaps wants to take the pot now rather than wait for you to hit another Q.

I call here every time. The only hand I would be concerned about would be 33 but given its 3-1 on your call I think you stick em in here, he could have KQ and think he has you outkicked.

It's difficult to generalise how to play TPTK in NL. I think it depends on your ability to read your opponents and 'smell' when your opponents are trapping with a set 2 pair and when they're just chasing a draw and playing the turn appropriately. Totalise is your man for this methinks....

I think due to the call of $39 into a $123 pot i would make the call 99% of the time. I think you could quite likely be up against a made FH here. However i think that this is also they play of someone with  Kh Qh or even  5h 6h.

In regards to the large overbets and all ins. From what i have noticed on the 6max games the over bet is used by alot of players who see that they have missed their hand completely and feel that the only way they can win the hand is through over betting and buying the pot.

With quads or a full house surely he is praying you hit a flush and pay him off!

Just watched a hand on Pacific (NL $100) where the BB raised the 1 limper (nor the SB) to $10 !!  Limper calls.  Flop is rags and the BB leads out $50 into a $20 pot.  Limper calls for all of his remaining stack and turns over QT for top pair on a T high board.  BB turns over KK and the K's hold up.  I guess that is a double bluff but I am seeing it much more frequently.  It's almost as if these type of players don't like bluffing with rags so they only bluff with good hands !

A possibility: A set might move all-in in this situation, if he feels you have AQ or KK or something like that, because he doesn't want the heart to drop on the river and scare you off, thus potentially costing him the extra $39? (if you have TPTK or the overpair, you're not passing now....)

i def call. pot odds look too good, and like has been said, if he had a fh he would want 2 build a pot not overbet it. this would mean whether u hit flush or not on river he still gets paid. 2 many hands u beat here for the price offered.

I called and he showed  3c  4c for the full house.

I still think I should have folded.

I would've called but I am a big  ;fish;

With these awkward TPTK hands I like to check the turn,  this is the perfect scenerio for it as there are not many draws out there for your opponent to hit. The main reason behind the turn check is that it keeps the pot to reasonable size and prevents situations like this arising while making the hand easier to play out.

Don't worry if you miss out on a little bet here and there on the turn with which you believe to be the best hand save that for the river when your opponent checks. If your opponent bets the river I'd call a lot of the time against an unknown as I would expect to be shown KQ or QJ a lot of the time. I am very much an advocate of only playing big pots with big hands, unfortunately TPTK is not a big hand in a cash game like this. The way the hand played out I'd call the turn check-raise as the pot is too big to get away from and I'd pray that your opponent has a hand like a Q with a flush draw. Opponents very seldom check-raise like this on a bluff as the odds you are getting on your money are too tasty to pass up. The way you played this hand looks very much like what you have and your opponent played his/her hand perfectly given the betting.