NL25 6max on stars anyone get away on the river vs perceived fish?

[Young_gun]

Person to my right is playing alot of pots, playing pretty weak post flop and often limp calling. I 3 bet as in position and pretty confident we can outplay him.

Previously he tried bluffing on the river with a 5 on a 5xx 2 overcards board i called, my image is pretty tight aggro, Playing position and pretty solid IMO

PokerStars Hand #86213473460:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25 USD) - 2012/09/15 15:24:01 WET [2012/09/15 10:24:01 ET]
Table 'Johanna II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Nixon A.R ($10 in chips)
Seat 3: tevez1988 ($26 in chips)
Seat 4: JohnBevan882 ($43.36 in chips)
Seat 5: Mc.Fire ($24.05 in chips)
Seat 6: jkkkk ($26.67 in chips)
Mc.Fire: posts small blind $0.10
jkkkk: posts big blind $0.25
brull2008: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JohnBevan882 [ ]
Nixon A.R: folds
tevez1988: raises $0.50 to $0.75
JohnBevan882: raises $1.25 to $2
Mc.Fire: folds
jkkkk: folds
tevez1988: calls $1.25
*** FLOP *** [ ]
tevez1988: checks
JohnBevan882: bets $1.75
tevez1988: calls $1.75
*** TURN *** [ ] []
tevez1988: checks
JohnBevan882: bets $3.75
tevez1988: calls $3.75
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
tevez1988: bets $1
JohnBevan882: raises $6.50 to $7.50
tevez1988: raises $11 to $18.50 and is all-in
JohnBevan882: calls $11
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tevez1988: shows [ As] (a flush, Ace high)
JohnBevan882: mucks hand
tevez1988 collected $50.35 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $52.35 | Rake $2
Board [ ]
Seat 1: Nixon A.R folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: tevez1988 showed [ As] and won ($50.35) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 4: JohnBevan882 (button) mucked [ ]
Seat 5: Mc.Fire (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: jkkkk (big blind) folded before Flop

[Skippy]

I'm not sure what the point of the 3 bet is. If he is going to call lots of 3 bets OOP with easily dominated Ace-rubbish, why not just 3 bet good hands instead of JTo?

If he's a bit stationny, why not take the free card on the turn?

[rfgqqabc]

Ya, when action goes like this got to be a fold.

[Young_gun]

3 bet to take initiative with a hand with plays well vs Ax, Kx, Small pocket pairs and so on. OTB i prefer to 3 bet then call if the table isnt too aggressive which it isnt

[Young_gun]

Ya, when action goes like this got to be a fold.

I did think about the flush as it was back door'd i didn't give him the credit.

P.S. Im a station/hero

[Skippy]

Ya, when action goes like this got to be a fold.

You can fold getting nigh on 3/1 on your money?

[Skippy]

3 bet to take initiative with a hand with plays well vs Ax, Kx, Small pocket pairs and so on. OTB i prefer to 3 bet then call if the table isnt too aggressive which it isnt

Anyone else agree with this?

[rbc_mike]

If you are three betting in position to iso, you need to make it more than $2, $2.75 or $3 seems good to me. Easier to mould the pot/leverage bets so that the STP (Stack to Pot) ratios are better down the streets.

[Pugwashed]

I'd fold JTo, there are enough better hands to do it it with but its probably fine vs a huge whale if the players behind you aren't aware of what you're doing. Logic for 3betting is also solid. Another positive is flatting a bunch of stuff sucks if there are players behind who like to squeeze. The 3bet sizing is also fine / good. $2.75 or $3 as suggested would be too big.

Postflop is fine I think, I'm not folding to his river shove.

[Young_gun]

Thanks Pugwash, also everyone. Mixed opinions really. When i was 3 betting previously blinds were pretty weak not peeling or putting a 4b in so was comfortable with a smallish. Any bigger 3b would get alot of folds or initiate a 4bet, in game IMO could be wrong but havent played cash in a while... especially on stars had a spare hour, finished up which was a bon@rs

[rbc_mike]

Based on the description that the villain to your right was limp calling alot, I suggested a bigger three bet size to get max value pre. 

But I still don't get your logic for three betting - if a hand like Jto plays well against Ax, Kx etc (your words), then why not just flat and use the deeper stacks to exploit your edge?  If you're in position, you can float tonnes of boards and use your 'initiative' to win the pot on later streets.  Fish play each street increasingly badly, so we want them making sub-optimal decisions on the turn and river.  If he's never folding, just three bet a value range, and this range should be iso-ing more pre, ainec imo.

 Surely as well we want him to fold at least some of the time pre, otherwise we are just inflating pots unnecessarily, albeit in position.  I could understand your logic if we were say 200bb deep, as then you can put him in some horrible spots oop, but ~100bb deep, I think you should be three betting a more polarised range against this described villain.

[rfgqqabc]

Ya, when action goes like this got to be a fold.

You can fold getting nigh on 3/1 on your money?

Is the river action ever a bluff?

[Young_gun]

Based on the description that the villain to your right was limp calling alot, I suggested a bigger three bet size to get max value pre. 

But I still don't get your logic for three betting - if a hand like Jto plays well against Ax, Kx etc (your words), then why not just flat and use the deeper stacks to exploit your edge?  If you're in position, you can float tonnes of boards and use your 'initiative' to win the pot on later streets.  Fish play each street increasingly badly, so we want them making sub-optimal decisions on the turn and river.  If he's never folding, just three bet a value range, and this range should be iso-ing more pre, ainec imo.

 Surely as well we want him to fold at least some of the time pre, otherwise we are just inflating pots unnecessarily, albeit in position.  I could understand your logic if we were say 200bb deep, as then you can put him in some horrible spots oop, but ~100bb deep, I think you should be three betting a more polarised range against this described villain.

Yeah good point, maybe i dont need to balance my 3 bet range but generally OTB if stacks are deep enough i prefer to then to call behind which is pretty weak. Still arguments for both no doubt and maybe i shouldnt be trying to 'take the initiative' vs someone who is gonna peel alot.

Also yeah good point thats a huge shove by them, at the time i assumed he could be spazzing out and talked myself into calling it sometimes need to think a bit more

[rbc_mike]

Definitely nothing wrong with three betting to take the initiative, like if you're only playing this guy once then we don't have to have a balanced range.  But if he is a regular, then ofc a balanced range is necessary otherwise we become exploitable.  My point was that if you are gonna take the initiative, just do it with a stronger range of hands for this particular villain

There is no right answer in the sense that there are many different styles to play, and you have more info on this player than I do. I quite like you three betting the button, but think you need a different reason to justify it imo. For example, if he is constantly c/f having called three bets oop, then we can three bet with any two cards! But if he's always hanging around with marginal holdings, make your life easier and have strong ranges when barrelling.

[Skippy]

Ya, when action goes like this got to be a fold.

You can fold getting nigh on 3/1 on your money?

Is the river action ever a bluff?

Doesn't he go nuts with 98, or 999, or have JT too 25% of the time?

No, your probably right.