Large Hadron Collider @ CERN

[kinboshi]

No, I think you've misunderstood.  Some people were saying that one nuclear bomb being detonated would set fire to the whole atmosphere of the planet.  This was the bit they got wrong, this was where the science showed they were wrong.

Of course they new that a bomb would kill people.  That's what they were created for.  Bullets have killed more people.  As has famine.  As has the lack of basic medical supplies.

So yesterday I was quite happy that these black hole experiments are totally safe.  Are you suggesting that I should now start getting worried in case these guys have been lying to us, and that there is potentially a grave danger to all this ?

The LHC isn't a bomb.  It isn't designed to explode over a city and kill hundreds and thousands of people.  That's exactly what atom bomb was intended to do.

Scary. 

What is?

You say stop the power greedy not the scientists.  Are the two mutually exclusive , then ?

Guns don’t kill people, people do.

Taking the last point first.  I knew someone would use this line, but for some reason I didn't expect it to be you.  So I expect I'm missing a gag/jibe aimed somewhere about my skull  .

The line seemed appropriate.  The science isn't the problem, it's how it's used.  Planes are a pretty good invention (I think so anyway).  But they've been used to drop bombs, fire missiles and even as weapons themselves (think this day in 2001).  So you think it would be better not to have planes, because some people might do bad things with them?

People kill each other.  So you've got two people standing 6 yards apart that hate each others guts, and actively wish the other one dead.  Give one a gun and bullets , and the other a squeaky rubber duck and a toilet brush.   Somehow I believe that the guy with the rubber duck is more easily influenced about the sanctity of life.

I think the one with the duck will soon be dead.

Back to the other.  I know I overstated my argument.  Deliberately, to show an extreme and the potential consequences of taking science to that extreme.  

OK.

I'm sure when people first started thinking about splitting the atom, the did so for the purest scientific reasons.

Then a scientist talked to a politician about the potential to harness that power.

Same as planes.
 

The guys responsible for making the atom bomb knew they were making the worlds best life ender. Ever.  Some probably hoped it would be used to end the war and therefore future wars.  Others knew that it's power was only the beginning of world domination ( cue MUAHAHAHAHA's from the audience ).  

Best life ender ever?  Nah.  Viruses, bacteria and protozoan parasites are far more effective killers.  Might not be as instantly impressive in terms of their wow factor, but their capacity to kill is far more impressive.

They also knew t'other guy was scaremongering and talking rubbish about it bringing forward the end of the world ( crash of thunder, please ).

No, you are talking about something different here. 

The poor saps reading the paper only wanted the war to end, so their surviving loved ones could return home to a brave new world.

No one really knew about the Manhattan project outside the people who were involved in it.  The public's perception and opinion of it has been based on information provided after the events.  The dropping of the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a totally different debate, and one I'm happy to talk about, but on another thread.

BUT

Looking back at that point from less than a feeble 50 years in the future, say the mid 80's, there was genuine belief from some people that the atom bomb was possibly the worst invention ever in the history of the world, because ( as you rightly say ) politicians can't be trusted with power.  And mankind now had the skills and the power to destroy itself with one touch of a button.  It was just a matter of time before some idiot tried it.

We're destroying mankind in many ways.  The population of the earth is unsustainable.  Whether it takes years or is over in a few bangs doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?

Ok so splitting the atom was a great scientific advance.  But when it was being researched was it ever thought it would be to further medicine, and save lives, or just to see how many Japs we could kill at one throw.  Like I said earlier, I don't believe the consequences were ever really considered.  And they were a darn site worse than the scientists could have foretold.

My Dad's life was saved because of this research.  He had a scan at a hospital using a radioactive isotope of barium that showed he needed a quadruple bypass. 

Of course this current experiment is being carried out for pure scientific reasons, that might well help our world in many ways.  However, one thing they will eventually try to recreate,on a much smaller scale,  is the big bang

And I fully expect there are already politicians hovering about waiting for the first big bang.  Coz once we have controlled that, we've invented a weapon that will be immeasurably more powerful than any thermonuclear explosion.

The energy created when protons collide is less than the energy created when you clap your hands.  That's not a useful weapon.

Here's an analogous situation.  Heating a swimming pool takes a lot of energy.  Heating a kettle full of water doesn't take much energy (compared to the pool).  But after a minute of heating the water in the kettle is very hot (maybe about 100 degrees C), this is a higher temperature than the water in the pool.  However, the water in the pool might only be heated to 25 degrees C - but the heat energy required to do this is far higher.

Temperature is not the same as heat. 

The very high temperatures created in the collisions are contained within a very, very small amount of space.  High temperatures, but on a macro level, not a great deal of energy.  All the energy is concentrated into a minute space.

It's just a matter of time.  And the politician with the Big Bang Bomb will rule the world.  For a while, at least.

That's scary.  To me, anyway.

Are you really scared about it?  Honestly?

But then I'm too fickle to be seriously worried, coz I can always get pissed and ignore it, and we'll probably all be dead anyway before anything nasty happens, anyway.

So you're not scared?

Quick half down the pub, anyone  

Mine's a pint. 

[AndrewT]

Quick half down the pub, anyone  

Mine's a pint. 

Oh no - it's a beer arms race.

[rex008]

Some interesting links:
What are the odds of it all going Pete Tong?
Now I'm not shaving any more.

Gamma Burst
Higher energy, and vastly more particles than involved at the LHC.

8 days time
Just in case anyone had forgotten. Arggghhhh.

[ShatnerPants]

I find it easier to learn from other people than read lots of books.  They use big words I don't understand and give me a headache.

But then, people do that as well.  So I wander round life with a headache, and a confused look.

I generally believe scientists are pretty cool in a nerdy kind of way ( I haven't done any research to prove this, it's just one of my many bigotted beliefs ).

But there have been some pretty major cock ups.  The bombs stored around the world 'just in case the nasty man over there chucks one at us' are one of the biggest.  But they were always going to happen because that's what mankind is like.  Someone invents something good.  Then someone twists it for their own grredy selfish purpose.

I do happen to believe that there will one day be something like a Big Bang Bomb.  But it won't be in my lifetime, and there's nothing I can do to uninvent it, coz I'm pretty sure that once someone even thought many years ago about the good that this current experiment could do in the future, there was someone else on the same day ( probably a US presidential aide, if Hollywood has it's way ) having thoughts on how to abuse it.

Your plane analogy.  Pretty much spot on.  

Where we differ is in your view : Whether it takes years or is over in a few bangs doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?

I'd rather like it to take as long as possible.  This is a rather nice planet, and short of the babelfish mentioned somewhere else has pretty much all we need for a good while yet.

I totally understand your comment about your Dad.  Scientific advancement saved his life.  I'll see that and raise it purely for selfish reasons - I had Leukemia several years ago, and it was spotted and treated before it had even started showing physical symptoms.  If the treatment was the same at it had been even 7 or 8 years earlier - I'm dead meat speaking.

But looking at these things for a scientific viewpoint, and taking your statement about the speed of the decline of the human race into account.  Then, objectively, he and I are unimportant.  And maybe, to prolong mankind's stay on this planet, maybe we should minimise the benefits we bring to the world.  As individuals we all live much longer than previous generations.  But will our grandchildren's grandchildren have much of a planet left to look after ?

Stupid question, I know, coz trying to get man not to think, is like telling him not to breath.  We are what we are, and we must suffer the consequences, good and bad.  I just wish decent people had more influence over the future of the planet, rather than the evil, selfish ones.

So I'll keep on being contrary, coz it helps me work out what I think, and hopefully it helps others see the flip side of the coin.

Another pint , please.  
 

[kinboshi]

I find it easier to learn from other people than read lots of books.  They use big words I don't understand and give me a headache.

Books are cool.  Especially ones that are well written.

But then, people do that as well.  So I wander round life with a headache, and a confused look.

Me too.  Poker does that to me.

I generally believe scientists are pretty cool in a nerdy kind of way ( I haven't done any research to prove this, it's just one of my many bigotted beliefs ).

Geeks rule the world.  Well they should, it'd be a better place (on the whole and in my opinion only of course).

But there have been some pretty major cock ups.  The bombs stored around the world 'just in case the nasty man over there chucks one at us' are one of the biggest.  But they were always going to happen because that's what mankind is like.  Someone invents something good.  Then someone twists it for their own grredy selfish purpose.

Yep, without science we'd still be killing each other by hand.

I do happen to believe that there will one day be something like a Big Bang Bomb.  But it won't be in my lifetime, and there's nothing I can do to uninvent it, coz I'm pretty sure that once someone even thought many years ago about the good that this current experiment could do in the future, there was someone else on the same day ( probably a US presidential aide, if Hollywood has it's way ) having thoughts on how to abuse it.

Mankind is in for an extinction-level event sometime in the not too distant future.  I do wonder if it will be man-made, or if a natural phenomenon will get there first.

Your plane analogy.  Pretty much spot on.  

Man didn't invent fire.  He discovered it. It's essential for survival, but it can also be used to destroy.  Again, it's not the science that's the problem - it's the application of the science.

Where we differ is in your view : Whether it takes years or is over in a few bangs doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?

I'd rather like it to take as long as possible.  This is a rather nice planet, and short of the babelfish mentioned somewhere else has pretty much all we need for a good while yet.

To us as individuals it might make a difference, but as part of the 'bigger picture' - we're insignificant.

I totally understand your comment about your Dad.  Scientific advancement saved his life.  I'll see that and raise it purely for selfish reasons - I had Leukemia several years ago, and it was spotted and treated before it had even started showing physical symptoms.  If the treatment was the same at it had been even 7 or 8 years earlier - I'm dead meat speaking.

Glad you're still with us.  Science is brilliant isn't it?

But looking at these things for a scientific viewpoint, and taking your statement about the speed of the decline of the human race into account.  Then, objectively, he and I are unimportant.  And maybe, to prolong mankind's stay on this planet, maybe we should minimise the benefits we bring to the world.  As individuals we all live much longer than previous generations.  But will our grandchildren's grandchildren have much of a planet left to look after ?

We are insignificant.  Not just me and you, but everyone on earth, everyone who's ever lived.  We're only one species, on one planet, in one galaxy amongst the millions out there in the universe.  The universe as we can observe it has been here for 13.7 billion years.  Humans have been here for 200,000 years.

13,700,000,000
           200,000

Pretty insignficant really.
 

Stupid question, I know, coz trying to get man not to think, is like telling him not to breath.  We are what we are, and we must suffer the consequences, good and bad.  I just wish decent people had more influence over the future of the planet, rather than the evil, selfish ones.

To quote the Stereophonics "It only takes one tree to make a thousand matches; it only takes one match to burn a thousand trees."

So I'll keep on being contrary, coz it helps me work out what I think, and hopefully it helps others see the flip side of the coin.

Another pint , please.  

Beer is always good. 
 

[thetank]

[  ] I read the last two pages of this thread.

[Rod Paradise]

[  ] I'm glad that I read the last two pages of this thread.

[kinboshi]

[  ] I'm glad that I read the last two pages of this thread.

[ ] Me too.

[ShatnerPants]

[  ] I read the last two pages of this thread.

[ ] Me too

[PocketLady]

As far as my understanding of this topic goes, then for something to go wrong, it would have to prove what had previously been only a theoretical hypothesis, such as the existence of stranglets.  Whilst that seems unlikely, let us not forget how many theories have been proved in the past.  Were this particular theory to be proved correct then it is highly likely that it could cause a chain reaction where any normal matter that comes into contact with these dark matter particles would be instantly changed into dark matter, and the world would end up like a neutron star, most definitely destroying all life.  Very unlikely, yes, it sounds very far-fetched.  Impossible, most definitely not.

I often lie awake at night wondering how/when we'll all manage to destroy each other.  It's not the pessimist in me, it just seems inevitable.  It's like the explosion of the Buncefield Fuel Depot.  It was an accident, and an unlikely one at that.  I bet they had a lot of safety precautions in place there, not as much as at somewhere like a nuclear power station or the place where this equipment is kept, but sooner or later someone somewhere will make a mistake.  To Err Is Human etc etc.  It's in our nature, and quite often it's how we learn.  It's also in our nature to explore and discover and learn, and we do, and this is how we do it.  But eventually something will go wrong, maybe not for 500 years.  But until then we will continue to discover, so I don't worry about it.

[WYSINWYG]

Some interesting links:
What are the odds of it all going Pete Tong?
Now I'm not shaving any more.

Gamma Burst
Higher energy, and vastly more particles than involved at the LHC.

8 days time
Just in case anyone had forgotten. Arggghhhh.

[ x ] I read the Pete Tong link
[  ] I feel much safer now.

Yeah ok it may produce a black hole yeah which may end up acreting mass in the earth's core but it's nothing to worry about.

[  ] You can reassure Joe Bloggs about the safety of a process which he doesn't fundamentally understand.

[neeko]

[  ] You can reassure Joe Bloggs about the safety of a process which he doesn't fundamentally understand.

Very true but it doesnt give the public the right to veto those things they dont understand. If that was the case there would be not a lot left allowed.

[nirvana]

I find it easier to learn from other people than read lots of books.  They use big words I don't understand and give me a headache.

Books are cool.  Especially ones that are well written.

Whatever

But then, people do that as well.  So I wander round life with a headache, and a confused look.

Me too.  Poker does that to me.

Aha

I generally believe scientists are pretty cool in a nerrdy kind of way ( I haven't done any research to prove this, it's just one of my many bigotted beliefs ).

Geeks rule the world.  Well they should, it'd be a better place (on the whole and in my opinion only of course).

Sure

But there have been some pretty major cock ups.  The bombs stored around the world 'just in case the nasty man over there chucks one at us' are one of the biggest.  But they were always going to happen because that's what mankind is like.  Someone invents something good.  Then someone twists it for their own grredy selfish purpose.

Yep, without science we'd still be killing each other by hand.

Cool

I do happen to believe that there will one day be something like a Big Bang Bomb.  But it won't be in my lifetime, and there's nothing I can do to uninvent it, coz I'm pretty sure that once someone even thought many years ago about the good that this current experiment could do in the future, there was someone else on the same day ( probably a US presidential aide, if Hollywood has it's way ) having thoughts on how to abuse it.

Mankind is in for an extinction-level event sometime in the not too distant future.  I do wonder if it will be man-made, or if a natural phenomenon will get there first.

Tooright

Your plane analogy.  Pretty much spot on.  

Man didn't invent fire.  He discovered it. It's essential for survival, but it can also be used to destroy.  Again, it's not the science that's the problem - it's the application of the science.

Yip

Where we differ is in your view : Whether it takes years or is over in a few bangs doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?

I'd rather like it to take as long as possible.  This is a rather nice planet, and short of the babelfish mentioned somewhere else has pretty much all we need for a good while yet.

To us as individuals it might make a difference, but as part of the 'bigger picture' - we're insignificant.

Yap

I totally understand your comment about your Dad.  Scientific advancement saved his life.  I'll see that and raise it purely for selfish reasons - I had Leukemia several years ago, and it was spotted and treated before it had even started showing physical symptoms.  If the treatment was the same at it had been even 7 or 8 years earlier - I'm dead meat speaking.

Glad you're still with us.  Science is brilliant isn't it?

Uhuh

But looking at these things for a scientific viewpoint, and taking your statement about the speed of the decline of the human race into account.  Then, objectively, he and I are unimportant.  And maybe, to prolong mankind's stay on this planet, maybe we should minimise the benefits we bring to the world.  As individuals we all live much longer than previous generations.  But will our grandchildren's grandchildren have much of a planet left to look after ?

We are insignificant.  Not just me and you, but everyone on earth, everyone who's ever lived.  We're only one species, on one planet, in one galaxy amongst the millions out there in the universe.  The universe as we can observe it has been here for 13.7 billion years.  Humans have been here for 200,000 years.

13,700,000,000
           200,000

Pretty insignficant really.
 
Pip pip

Stupid question, I know, coz trying to get man not to think, is like telling him not to breath.  We are what we are, and we must suffer the consequences, good and bad.  I just wish decent people had more influence over the future of the planet, rather than the evil, selfish ones.

To quote the Stereophonics "It only takes one tree to make a thousand matches; it only takes one match to burn a thousand trees."

Not 'arf

So I'll keep on being contrary, coz it helps me work out what I think, and hopefully it helps others see the flip side of the coin.

Another pint , please.  

Beer is always good. 
 
Skol

[kinboshi]

I find it easier to learn from other people than read lots of books.  They use big words I don't understand and give me a headache.

Books are cool.  Especially ones that are well written.

Whatever

But then, people do that as well.  So I wander round life with a headache, and a confused look.

Me too.  Poker does that to me.

Aha

I generally believe scientists are pretty cool in a nerrdy kind of way ( I haven't done any research to prove this, it's just one of my many bigotted beliefs ).

Geeks rule the world.  Well they should, it'd be a better place (on the whole and in my opinion only of course).

Sure

But there have been some pretty major cock ups.  The bombs stored around the world 'just in case the nasty man over there chucks one at us' are one of the biggest.  But they were always going to happen because that's what mankind is like.  Someone invents something good.  Then someone twists it for their own grredy selfish purpose.

Yep, without science we'd still be killing each other by hand.

Cool

I do happen to believe that there will one day be something like a Big Bang Bomb.  But it won't be in my lifetime, and there's nothing I can do to uninvent it, coz I'm pretty sure that once someone even thought many years ago about the good that this current experiment could do in the future, there was someone else on the same day ( probably a US presidential aide, if Hollywood has it's way ) having thoughts on how to abuse it.

Mankind is in for an extinction-level event sometime in the not too distant future.  I do wonder if it will be man-made, or if a natural phenomenon will get there first.

Tooright

Your plane analogy.  Pretty much spot on.  

Man didn't invent fire.  He discovered it. It's essential for survival, but it can also be used to destroy.  Again, it's not the science that's the problem - it's the application of the science.

Yip

Where we differ is in your view : Whether it takes years or is over in a few bangs doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?

I'd rather like it to take as long as possible.  This is a rather nice planet, and short of the babelfish mentioned somewhere else has pretty much all we need for a good while yet.

To us as individuals it might make a difference, but as part of the 'bigger picture' - we're insignificant.

Yap

I totally understand your comment about your Dad.  Scientific advancement saved his life.  I'll see that and raise it purely for selfish reasons - I had Leukemia several years ago, and it was spotted and treated before it had even started showing physical symptoms.  If the treatment was the same at it had been even 7 or 8 years earlier - I'm dead meat speaking.

Glad you're still with us.  Science is brilliant isn't it?

Uhuh

But looking at these things for a scientific viewpoint, and taking your statement about the speed of the decline of the human race into account.  Then, objectively, he and I are unimportant.  And maybe, to prolong mankind's stay on this planet, maybe we should minimise the benefits we bring to the world.  As individuals we all live much longer than previous generations.  But will our grandchildren's grandchildren have much of a planet left to look after ?

We are insignificant.  Not just me and you, but everyone on earth, everyone who's ever lived.  We're only one species, on one planet, in one galaxy amongst the millions out there in the universe.  The universe as we can observe it has been here for 13.7 billion years.  Humans have been here for 200,000 years.

13,700,000,000
           200,000

Pretty insignficant really.
 
Pip pip

Stupid question, I know, coz trying to get man not to think, is like telling him not to breath.  We are what we are, and we must suffer the consequences, good and bad.  I just wish decent people had more influence over the future of the planet, rather than the evil, selfish ones.

To quote the Stereophonics "It only takes one tree to make a thousand matches; it only takes one match to burn a thousand trees."

Not 'arf

So I'll keep on being contrary, coz it helps me work out what I think, and hopefully it helps others see the flip side of the coin.

Another pint , please.  

Beer is always good. 
 
Skol

POTW

[dik9]

Why do I keep reading the title of this thread as " Large Hardon Collider"?

Click to see full-size image.