Razz Hand help please - Massive pot!

[Eyeofsauron]

A couple of questions. I'm just getting back into playing ring games, and I love playing Razz.

Firstly, did I play this hand correctly?

POKERSTARS GAME #8850490205:  RAZZ LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/03/11 - 13:59:25 (ET)
Table 'Laverna' 8-max
Seat 1: LazyGenius1 ($46.75 in chips)
Seat 2: cdgolfer ($80 in chips)
Seat 3: bigjaywedge ($125.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Mr_Mad ($230.25 in chips)
Seat 5: mafinis ($46.50 in chips)
Seat 6: hahaj1 ($110.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Jimmy Cha ($52.25 in chips)
LazyGenius1: posts the ante $0.25
cdgolfer: posts the ante $0.25
bigjaywedge: posts the ante $0.25
Mr_Mad: posts the ante $0.25
mafinis: posts the ante $0.25
hahaj1: posts the ante $0.25
D_Finkle has timed out while being disconnected
D_Finkle: is sitting out
Jimmy Cha: posts the ante $0.25
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to LazyGenius1 []
Dealt to cdgolfer [ ]
Dealt to bigjaywedge []
Dealt to Mr_Mad [ ]
Dealt to mafinis []
Dealt to hahaj1 []
Dealt to Jimmy Cha []
D_Finkle is disconnected
Mr_Mad: brings in for $1
mafinis: calls $1
D_Finkle is connected
hahaj1: folds
Jimmy Cha: raises $1 to $2
LazyGenius1: folds
cdgolfer: folds
D_Finkle has returned
bigjaywedge: calls $2
Mr_Mad: raises $2 to $4
mafinis: calls $3
Jimmy Cha: raises $2 to $6
bigjaywedge: calls $4
Mr_Mad: raises $2 to $8
Betting is capped
mafinis: calls $4
Jimmy Cha: calls $2
bigjaywedge: calls $2
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to bigjaywedge [] []
Dealt to Mr_Mad [ ] []
Dealt to mafinis [] []
Dealt to Jimmy Cha [] []
bigjaywedge: checks
Mr_Mad: bets $2
mafinis: calls $2
Jimmy Cha: raises $2 to $4
bigjaywedge: folds
bigjaywedge is sitting out
Mr_Mad: calls $2
mafinis: calls $2
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Mr_Mad [ ] []
Dealt to mafinis [ ] []
Dealt to Jimmy Cha [ ] []
Mr_Mad: bets $4
mafinis: calls $4
Jimmy Cha: raises $4 to $8
Mr_Mad: raises $4 to $12
mafinis: calls $8
Jimmy Cha: raises $4 to $16
Betting is capped
Mr_Mad: calls $4
mafinis: calls $4
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Mr_Mad [ ] []
Dealt to mafinis [ ] [ ]
Dealt to Jimmy Cha [ ] []
Mr_Mad: bets $4
mafinis: calls $4
Jimmy Cha: raises $4 to $8
Mr_Mad: calls $4
mafinis: raises $4 to $12
Jimmy Cha: raises $4 to $16
Betting is capped
Mr_Mad: calls $8
mafinis: calls $4
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Mr_Mad [ ] []
Mr_Mad: bets $4
mafinis: calls $2.25 and is all-in
Jimmy Cha: raises $4 to $8 and is all-in
Mr_Mad: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jimmy Cha: shows [ ] (Lo: 8,7,6,3,2)
Mr_Mad: shows [ ] (Lo: 8,7,4,3,A)
Mr_Mad collected $11.50 from side pot
mafinis: shows [ ] (Lo: 7,6,5,3,2)
mafinis collected $145.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $160 Main pot $145.50. Side pot $11.50. | Rake $3
Seat 1: LazyGenius1 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 2: cdgolfer folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bigjaywedge folded on the 4th Street
Seat 4: Mr_Mad showed [Ah ] and won ($11.50) with Lo: 8,7,4,3,A
Seat 5: mafinis showed [ ] and won ($145.50) with Lo: 7,6,5,3,2
Seat 6: hahaj1 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Jimmy Cha showed [ ] and lost with Lo: 8,7,6,3,2

Secondly, when trying to work out my winning percentage, PokerTracker redirects to twodimes.net
and gives the following data. I notice my EV figure on the right hand side. Did this mean it was a profitable move to play this hand, even though in the end I ended up losing the huge side pot?

Third Street:

Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards       win       %win    lose       %lose       tie    %tie    EV
     128248    25.65    370728    74.15       1024    0.20    0.258
   178599    35.72    319736    63.95       1665    0.33    0.359
   191081    38.22    307464    61.49       1455    0.29    0.384

Fourth Street:

cards       win       %win    lose       %lose       tie    %tie    EV
     67730       13.55    431349    86.27       921    0.18    0.136
   236490    47.30    258103    51.62       5407    1.08    0.478
   189560    37.91    304327    60.87       6113    1.22    0.385

Fifth Street

cards      win       %win    lose       %lose       tie    %tie    EV
  207247    41.45    292729    58.55       24    0.00    0.415
167221    33.44    330072    66.01       2707    0.54    0.337
122818    24.56    374485    74.90       2697    0.54    0.248

Sixth Street

cards       win       %win    lose       %lose       tie    %tie    EV
  11866    54.12    10058       45.88       0    0.00    0.541
5503    25.10    16375       74.69       46    0.21    0.252
4509    20.57    17369       79.22       46    0.21    0.207

[matt674]

Played razz a bit but only in tourneys - not cash. First thing i noticed was that you were the bring in 7 handed - therefore you had the highest card on show on 3rd once the pot is raised and called why do you then proceed to continue raising til the pot is capped? Surely there must be at least one of the two who has your 9-lo beat

On 4th even though your hand improves all your opponents have drawn better cards than you yet you still bet out and call a reraise.

5th means you have the best hand on show - but with Jimmy's pair still being lower than your 2nd highest card provided it means that if the 6 hasnt given him 2 pair he is still on a better draw than you - mafinis has hit a higher card than you but the fact that he is calling all the reraises it leads me to believe that he is also on a better draw. You proceed to cap the betting.

6th gives you a king - yet you still proceed to cap the betting.

7th - you finally make an 8-7 lo, hardly a hand that is going to win that many pots and yet you capped the betting 4 times out of the possible 5 betting rounds.

I can understand if you are trying to create an image to use later in the games but it looks like to me that you are overplaying what is a marginal razz hand at best.

[dino1980]

I play a fair bit of razz. I'd probably have folded this hand right off the bat. I generally fold anything that's not three to an eight low and even then if i've got an eight showing, I need to be almost perfect in the hole to play it if there's much heat before it gets to me.

As Matt mentions, you've had to post the bring in, which means that a fair few of your outs also I hate the raise to $4, IMO and IME razz is much less of a ram and jam game than any other limit game. Apart from that Matt has succintly summarised it.

[matt674]

IMO and IME razz is much less of a ram and jam game than any other limit game.

I agree with you but to be honest i just play tourneys, i didn't want to make this point if it didn't apply as much to ring games.

[Eyeofsauron]

Thanks guys for your replies. I think you're right, looking back on the hand I massively overplayed a marginal hand. I tend to play erratically at times.

According to those stats though, if I'm reading them correctly, I was favorite to win the hand on 5th street, when the bets double. On 6th street I had a 54% chance of winning a pot of which only a third was from my stack. Based on that assumption, shouldn't I be playing this hand evey time? 50% of the time, I win twice the amount I lose when the cards don't fall in my favour. If it were two handed, I think I would have folded.

[Jon MW]

... I was favorite to win the hand on 5th street...

I think the point is you shouldn't have got there - the stats off the bat are the relevant ones, that's where you should fold. Even though you got a bit lucky later on you started off worse and finished worse - and that's why it was overplayed.

[Eyeofsauron]

Thanks Jon. I'll try to bear it in mind. I think I just had one of those crazy moments with this hand and got carried away with it.

[matt674]

another thing to remember is the texture of other peoples hands.

On 5th street you are drawing to a 7-lo, to hit this you need a 2, a 5 or a 6 - however if you look at the 6 cards that your opponents are showing they are 6, 2, 10, 2, 6, 6 - so of the 12 cards that will improve your hand nearly half of them are in your opponents hands.

Also bigjaywedge passed on 4th after he held a 5 and a 4 so that makes 6 of your 12 outs and if he passed with two lo cards like that then chances are he held at least one other 5 in his two down cards.

So chances are you are capping the betting on 5th and 6th when you have only a possible 4 or 5 outs - which could be drawing dead if you hit.