Advice Wanted on EPT Hand

[jjandellis]

Hello again with this hand! I am after trying to find out how others would have played this hand. I am not too interested in whether people thought the Danish bloke sucked out on me. Its more a case of - did I play the hand correctly. Unlike the previous post of this hand, I have included my thoughts and observations at the time...


Blinds: 100/200
SB: Henning
BB: Mark Bartlog
UTG: Danish Pokerplex bloke raises to 425. I have been watching him closely. His betting and his demeanour make me put him on Ace with a low kicker - probably suited. Unbelievably he had made the same play a few times.
Danish girly folds.

I get      (I think the suits are right). I call.I only call as I note the German bloke has a hand. He has been strictly on a diet of AA/KK/AK. I am happy to see what he does, as I know he can be pushed off a hand very easily post flop. I am also aware that Henning Granstad and Mark Bartlog are in the blinds. I expect a re-raise from Mark

German bloke calls.
Folds around and the blinds also fold.
The pot is 1675.
Flop comes     

At this point the tills start ringing in my ears!!! ;sark;How will I play this one

Anyway, Danish bloke bets out for 1200. I now have him nailed on for A/low kicker. I heavily suspect they are both clubsI know I have the nuts at present and figure the German for top pair, if not maybe even a set. It is extremely likely a raise will scare him off now, but if he wants to re-raise me I'm more than happy. I really don't think he's got 2 clubs though

I get a chip count and then re-raise Danish bloke all in for a total of 7000. I have given him a call of 5800 into a pot of 9875. So 5/3 pot odds. He's got 9 outs known to him and another 3 he may have been unaware of for a chop, with 47 cards If he calls and I win I got to about 19500 in chips, when the average is 11k. It will also be table big stack.
German bloke gets out of the way.
Danish bloke thinks and then calls.
He shows     

I bite my lip cus the inevitable is coming.

Turn comes rag.

River comes   

So how would you play this hand???

Would a smaller raise, risking less of my stack be better??? I keep looking at it but decide once it goes over a total of 3500 its over half his chipstack and inevitable he will find himself pot committed. It also gives him bigger odds to call.

HELP!

[M3boy]

Arguments for and against here.

If your read is that good on him (and it was), then why not flat call and push the turn (non club of course).

Looking at it another way, you got him to committ when you are ahead - what else can you do?

[RichD]

I'm amazed how you put him on a low suited Ace pre-flop just from his raise, but if your read that that insanely spot on - maybe call and shove a non-club/queen turn. Then he cannot call.


edit: i actually didnt read the post above anyway, personally I dont believe its possible to read someone that insanely well and maybe after the event your looking back and convincing yourself you did know? I'd shove this flop without a read, but point was if you know he has this then calling and shoving a blank turn really makes him such a underdog he can't call.

[doubleup]

I get      (I think the suits are right). I call.I only call as I note the German bloke has a hand. He has been strictly on a diet of AA/KK/AK. I am happy to see what he does, as I know he can be pushed off a hand very easily post flop. I am also aware that Henning Granstad and Mark Bartlog are in the blinds. I expect a re-raise from Mark

You call in a multiway pot "knowing" that someone has you dominated and in position and expecting a re- raise from the blinds?

[boldie]

I get      (I think the suits are right). I call.I only call as I note the German bloke has a hand. He has been strictly on a diet of AA/KK/AK. I am happy to see what he does, as I know he can be pushed off a hand very easily post flop. I am also aware that Henning Granstad and Mark Bartlog are in the blinds. I expect a re-raise from Mark

You call in a multiway pot "knowing" that someone has you dominated and in position and expecting a re- raise from the blinds?

yeah this is what made me think. That's just insane.

[boldie]

ok fair enough. I obviously wasn't playing but seems to me you did everything right.

[MANTIS01]

My Answer:

Firstly, the way you have played this hand is fine. Getting your chips in with the best of it is all that any of us can do.

However, this is my analysis:

Pre-flop you decided to flat call. Thus you have assumed the roll of the caller not the aggressor. You could have decided to re-raise pre-flop and become the aggressor in the hand but decided to see a flop instead. The flop comes Bingo Bango Bongo and you have the coconuts. The pre-flop raiser bets out 1200 which is to be expected. He is still assuming his role as the aggressor and could have any hand. We now know he is betting out in the hope that the club comes (or to take the pot down). Why change your role in this hand now? You have the nuts with a player betting into you and an active player to act behind you. He is betting 1200 that the club comes so just call 1200 and bet that the club doesn't come. Why risk everything right now? You would only push here in the hope that the other players fold and you take the pot.

Don't be scared to play the nuts, you are in charge of this hand. If the club does come you can withdraw from the hand with your tournament life in tact. Don't be fooled into thinking that calling is a weak play here and pushing is strong.

Calling is the aggressive play. You are trying to maximise this opportunity to win the tournament.

If you go all-in here he will always call. Why? Because it is his pot. Forget pot-odds. You look at the hand from his perspective. He raised pre-flop with a weak hand and got two undesirable callers. The flop comes Bingo Bango almost Bongo. He bets out drawing to the nuts. You go all-in. You could be going all-in with any draw yourself and as such even his A could be good now, if not the club certainly will be.

But it is more the principle of the thing. If you want to win these events you are not going to let someone push you off a pot if you are the aggressor and drawing to the nuts. If he folds here his table image will be a joke.

My advice...you called pre-flop in the hope of hitting a flop and proceeded to hit the perfect flop. Just call again here. The German may sense weakness and push with anything, one pair, two pair or a bare queen for example...lovely jubbly.

When a blank comes on the turn the Dane may slow down and surrender the pot. Now bet. He is no longer the aggressor you are and he will now fold because if he was going to call a bet he would have pushed himself. If he pushes, you call, great, same result one less card to come. In addition the German could still be contributing to your tourney winning pot.

[kinboshi]

My Answer:

Firstly, the way you have played this hand is fine. Getting your chips in with the best of it is all that any of us can do.

However, this is my analysis:

Pre-flop you decided to flat call. Thus you have assumed the roll of the caller not the aggressor. You could have decided to re-raise pre-flop and become the aggressor in the hand but decided to see a flop instead. The flop comes Bingo Bango Bongo and you have the coconuts. The pre-flop raiser bets out 1200 which is to be expected. He is still assuming his role as the aggressor and could have any hand. We now know he is betting out in the hope that the club comes (or to take the pot down). Why change your role in this hand now? You have the nuts with a player betting into you and an active player to act behind you. He is betting 1200 that the club comes so just call 1200 and bet that the club doesn't come. Why risk everything right now? You would only push here in the hope that the other players fold and you take the pot.

Don't be scared to play the nuts, you are in charge of this hand. If the club does come you can withdraw from the hand with your tournament life in tact. Don't be fooled into thinking that calling is a weak play here and pushing is strong.

Calling is the aggressive play. You are trying to maximise this opportunity to win the tournament.

If you go all-in here he will always call. Why? Because it is his pot. Forget pot-odds. You look at the hand from his perspective. He raised pre-flop with a weak hand and got two undesirable callers. The flop comes Bingo Bango almost Bongo. He bets out drawing to the nuts. You go all-in. You could be going all-in with any draw yourself and as such even his A could be good now, if not the club certainly will be.

But it is more the principle of the thing. If you want to win these events you are not going to let someone push you off a pot if you are the aggressor and drawing to the nuts. If he folds here his table image will be a joke.

My advice...you called pre-flop in the hope of hitting a flop and proceeded to hit the perfect flop. Just call again here. The German may sense weakness and push with anything, one pair, two pair or a bare queen for example...lovely jubbly.

When a blank comes on the turn the Dane may slow down and surrender the pot. Now bet. He is no longer the aggressor you are and he will now fold because if he was going to call a bet he would have pushed himself. If he pushes, you call, great, same result one less card to come. In addition the German could still be contributing to your tourney winning pot.

  and

[boldie]

My Answer:

Firstly, the way you have played this hand is fine. Getting your chips in with the best of it is all that any of us can do.

However, this is my analysis:

Pre-flop you decided to flat call. Thus you have assumed the roll of the caller not the aggressor. You could have decided to re-raise pre-flop and become the aggressor in the hand but decided to see a flop instead. The flop comes Bingo Bango Bongo and you have the coconuts. The pre-flop raiser bets out 1200 which is to be expected. He is still assuming his role as the aggressor and could have any hand. We now know he is betting out in the hope that the club comes (or to take the pot down). Why change your role in this hand now? You have the nuts with a player betting into you and an active player to act behind you. He is betting 1200 that the club comes so just call 1200 and bet that the club doesn't come. Why risk everything right now? You would only push here in the hope that the other players fold and you take the pot.

Don't be scared to play the nuts, you are in charge of this hand. If the club does come you can withdraw from the hand with your tournament life in tact. Don't be fooled into thinking that calling is a weak play here and pushing is strong.

Calling is the aggressive play. You are trying to maximise this opportunity to win the tournament.

If you go all-in here he will always call. Why? Because it is his pot. Forget pot-odds. You look at the hand from his perspective. He raised pre-flop with a weak hand and got two undesirable callers. The flop comes Bingo Bango almost Bongo. He bets out drawing to the nuts. You go all-in. You could be going all-in with any draw yourself and as such even his A could be good now, if not the club certainly will be.

But it is more the principle of the thing. If you want to win these events you are not going to let someone push you off a pot if you are the aggressor and drawing to the nuts. If he folds here his table image will be a joke.

My advice...you called pre-flop in the hope of hitting a flop and proceeded to hit the perfect flop. Just call again here. The German may sense weakness and push with anything, one pair, two pair or a bare queen for example...lovely jubbly.

When a blank comes on the turn the Dane may slow down and surrender the pot. Now bet. He is no longer the aggressor you are and he will now fold because if he was going to call a bet he would have pushed himself. If he pushes, you call, great, same result one less card to come. In addition the German could still be contributing to your tourney winning pot.

Interesting..excellent post

Food for thought

Oh and welcome!

[Bazzaboy]

Call flop especially with someone to act behind. Raise/bet turn

[scotty2hatty]

Anyway, Danish bloke bets out for 1200. I now have him nailed on for A/low kicker. I heavily suspect they are both clubsI know I have the nuts at present and figure the German for top pair, if not maybe even a set. It is extremely likely a raise will scare him off now, but if he wants to re-raise me I'm more than happy. I really don't think he's got 2 clubs though

my god, some thoughts you have.

u heavily suspect they are both clubs, as well as not really thinking he has two clubs?

your pre-flop thoughts are truely baffling also.

but u did get your chips in with the best hand so u played it well in that respect.

[RichD]

I was thinking about this hand a bit more today, and have decided pre-flop i'd have played differently.

Was the German really limping with AA/KK/AK (I assume QQ can be added to his range). If so apart from flopping the straight or a set or queens your in big big trouble with AQo, plus you say the villain has a raggy ace. So why not re-raise pre-flop and find out where you are.

You have position post-flop if anyone does call, you find out a bit more about the German's hand and WILL get A5 out the pot 80% of the time, as if the flop did come with a ace - will you be confident enough to know when he has flopped 2 pair ?

I'd be interested to know if anyone disagree's with this pre-flop aggresion.

Also gutted for you Lee, if you'd not been outdrawn you'd of had a nice stack to try and been set to progress deeper into the event!

[MANTIS01]

The crucial thing to remember for winning tournament play is to make the very most out of favourable situations.

How many times do we call a raise with A-Q....miss the flop...and then fold to a continuation bet?....Lots!!

Sometimes the flop will come a seemingly ideal A high and we will do all our chips to A-K

Sometimes the flop will come A-Q-6 and we do all our chips to a set of 6's

And there are an infinite number of variations to the above which creates a lot of negative equity when calling a raise with this type of hand. However, calling 425 to CATCH A FLOP is still a perfectly reasonable play.

Once you have called the 425 that money has gone into the big speculation pot in the sky along with all the other speculative calls you have made pre-flop with A-Q throughout your poker life....So c'mon lets catch a flop with A-Q for once....it's an EPT event for christ's sake.

Low and behold, the poker gods have shown a bit of compassion for once, it is a good day, and the flops descends onto the felt to the sweet melody of Viva Las Vegas.

Lets say the Dane bets out with any hand as would be expected....A-J for example. You go all-in. The German folds. The Dane folds. You win 1200.

There is little point calling raises with A-Q, folding a lot post flop, and then making a meagre 1200 with you flop the nuts.

So flat call here let the German push with his A-K and get well and truely paid for this rare golden moment.

If things don't work out, you get knocked out, so what, you got knocked out anyway, we all get knocked out a lot.

The point is....

YOU GET KNOCKED OUT TRYING TO WIN THE COMPETITION.....NOT SCARED TO LOOSE IT!!!

Good Luck

[stewart]

before i could answer i have to ask, what was your table imagine at the time? what kind of hands were you showing/playing?

[Dubai]

Best Thread Ever No Dangers.

My advise would be to cash in any future EPT tickets for the €5000 monetary value.