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"One-eyed Scottish idiot" is what he called Gordon Brown...apparently this is now offensive...though I don't quite see what part of it is.

A charity for the blind has complained that it is offensive (Though I never heard anyone complain when people slagged on that blind pillock of a Blunkett)..and I just heard Lord Foulkes on the ten o'clock news say that "If Ross gets supsended for three months, and Carol Thatcher gets sacked for calling someone a golliwog in a private off-air conversation, then surely some action need to be taken against Clarkson for his comments"

Am I nuts? Is calling the prime minister a One Eyed Scottish Idiot as bad as calling a black tennis player a Golliwog or phoning an old man up and telling him how you banged his grand daughter?

Clarkson apologised.."I shouldn't have commented on his personal appearance", surely that's more than enough?

Why is it "Piss on the Beeb" season in this country?

And why do we ask Lord Faulkes about this?..after all, he's not exactly as clean as a whistle, is he?...Maybe slightly more serious than calling someone a one-eyed-scottish-idiot?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5614892.ece

Of course it offensive Boldie, you take it to a different level when you call a man Scottish

Brown suffered a massive eye injury when he was a kid playing rugby and can only see out of one eye, he very nearly lost use of the other eye too apparently. I agree that we see loads of over reactions to all kind of things these days but Clarkson is a disgrace in almost everything he does and he's overstepped the mark a little again here. Similar to Thatcher, not a big deal but he shouldn't have done it imo.

fair point..also have to say I expect the union of grammar teachers to step forward soon as well saying that Clarkson's language was shocking as "Surely when you say scottish you don't also need to say idiot, it's implied" ;)

Part1; Yeah we know he only has sight from one eye, what's the big deal?
Partv 2; Clarkson is a disgrace....yeah..well that would colour your opinion a bit, wouldn't it?

Similar to Thatcher????????..Are you shitting me?

Carol Thatcher unlike her mother is ignorant but not malicious (just for the avoidance of doubt her mother was both), what she said is unquestionably stupid. IMO thatcher junior and clarkson are both guilty of different forms stupidity/ignorance that makes them in this context quite similar.

 

TBF the BBC dish it out enough, like they run the gaff, i dont mind it when they get it in the neck.

look at the weather and how theyve reported it, after listening to them bang on about the ineptitude of local government for 7 days solid now they'd be able to convince you that you'd be in better shape having robert mugabe take charge of thames water than let borough councils get on and do their thing.

FYP

ty for the fix, I realised just after I posted that the bracketed section could probably use an imo, I was going to do it myself but you saved me the trouble. 

No problem - happy to prevent unneccesary hassle.  ::)

Too late I've already asked the BBC to cut off kukushkin's transmission and write to him to say that if he works for them he's sacked

fml, I was gonna have a few mates round to watch the rugby later as well.

Lol

How are these two things even close. Thather is an idiot for saying something like that, its racist ignorant and just plain stupid coming from someone in the spotlight.

Clarkson. Er? Was one word of it wrong? Has he not got one eye? Is he not a bumbling idiot?
Why should Clarkson get into trouble for not only speaking the truth, its also what anyone with any sense must think of him.

Brown is on route to ruining this country.

Just out of interest what do people want as Mr Clarksons punishment? Im pretty sure Ross was strapped for cash and things to do while he was suspended. Not to forget poor Russell Brand his career is in tatters after resigning from the BBC!

Imo if my granddaughter was a satanic slut i would already assume that Russell Brand had already ravaged her.

+1 crazy rant point for the crazy rant league imo

well played

What exactly is the reason you feel Brown is on route to ruining the country? What would you change?

I dont really have an opinion one way or the other-just interested in other peoples views- for example do you blame him for the current economic climate/Recession??

His behaviour just lacks the basic respect that all human beings should afford to one another. From that perspective it was ill judged/ignorant/stupid imo. Carol Thatchers comment was also all of these things therefore they are to some extent similar.

Just for the record, Gordon Brown irrelevant of his record as PM is a hugely intelligent man, calling him a bumbling idiot is ignorant in the extreme. I'm not defending Carol Thatcher at all, she is also guilty of considerable ignorance.

How far have standards in society slipped if mocking someone for having one eye is acceptable simply because it is true? We should be better than that, all of us.

Scottish ;D

Gordon Brown is Scottish and has got one eye. The reason saying this has negative connotations is because the country is in recession. The country is in recession because Gordon Brown is an idiot (this is the most important of the 3 things). Now if Gordon Brown wasn't an idiot and we all had loads of cash he would be hailed as the great cyclops Scotsman who triumphed in power despite his handicaps. Now society would allow us to use these same factual adjectives to describe the man and it would be deemed ok. Like Gordon Banks. You could say he had one eye and it's ok cos the man was good anyway. So it's Brown's fault his one-eyedness is bad and I can't be held responsible for that.

Erm -  if the Tories were in power we'd definitely be heading for Great Depression 2. 

I imagine so. But deffo so if they still had an idiot like Major as leader. The man we trusted to make the most important decisions for us all decided Edwina Curry was fit. Ffs why are there only idiots to chose from? Major was the grey boring idiot and Brown is the Scottish idiot with one eye. It is perfectly ok to say that. It is only when you really believe his one eye actually causes his idiocy that you do a bad thing. I don't think that. I think he would be an idiot if he had 20-20. But even with one eye he's got better vision than Major imo.

The present crisis had its origin in Thatcher's deregulation IMO.  She created a whole class of tossers who thought they were brill when they were actually just playing a glorified martingale system with the economy as the bankroll. 

The ppl who should make fortunes are entrepreneurs and inventors - not the glorified administrators who head plcs.

Thatcher's deregulation offered a generation of people the opportunity to flourish. People fecking up that opportunity doesn't mean the idea was bad. People are always fecking up good ideas. Blaming Thatcher for everything is normal though. Yes, entrepreneurs should make fortunes, and they were given that chance under Thatcher and her deregulation.

My point is that they were fourishing under false pretences. 

I can't recall any Thatcherite deregulation that encouraged entrepeneurship - she did reduce the higher levels of tax, but with the high levels of avoidance prevalent at that time its debateable whether that had much effect.

I'm not saying Brown/labour are blameless - they were happy to let the system run.  But it was Thatcher who encouraged the excessive reliance on financial services rather than the genuine wealth created by the partnership of inventiveness and entrepreneurship.

I can't recall any Thatcherite deregulation that encouraged entrepeneurship

allowing banks to lend greater proportions of their capital meant finance was made available to entire generations of people - not just for homes, but to start businesses.

While I think his comment is a bit OTT, if more people, like Clarkson spoke their mind the world would be a better place...

what people that are like Clarkson DONT speak there mind?

I dont mean 'people like Clarkson', I mean 'people, like Clarkson',  am I making any sense?!

yes, but now i'm concerned

you're saying their should be more Clarkson's in the world?!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ;grr;

OMG ...where to start...Thanks Jeremy ( poncy English name) ...keep at it..Tory victory at next election = Scottish independence.

Absolutely no way Scotland will allow itself to be ruled by English public school boys ( like Jeremy ( poncy English name ) )again..not after Thatcher
decimated the place the last time...

The longer Jeremy (poncy English name) keeps ranting on the better......Scotland will be freeeeeee!!!

 Td Th

NO!  i'm not a big fan, just like people, in general, who say it how it is, even if sometimes they say something which upsets people...

Clarkson's just a parody anyway - the 21'st century's Alf Garnett.

The slagging based on appearance & nationality is a bit out of order, but if Clarkson thinks he's an idiot why's he wrong to say so?

I could have thought up a few others far worse more to do with murderer by proxy.

Well obviously if the tables are full of fish we all get rich, but when the fish go broke we all go busto just like hundreds of businesses around the country are right now.

Yes, because the Scottish parliament and Scottish business has done incredibly well over the past few years and therefore you should have all the confidence in an independent Scotland.

I really can't believe people still advocate an independent Scotland over here...

the north sea oil has almost run out and your banks are bankrupt so you'll be free to do what exactly? move to england? :)

fwiw i love clarkson and hate gordon clown but you shouldn't take the piss out of people's disabilities and I'm surprised so many of you think it's OK

he wouldn't have apologised unless he knew he was out of order.

I can't believe they don't.

The government coverup of the true potential impact of the last Independance vote only came out in the last few years, England couldn't have afforded the loss of Scotland. They're still fighting to keep Scotland in the union, do you think the reason has changed?

This

I think he revels in it as well, as close a real life persona to Alan Partrige as you'll see.

I watch him on Top Gear and think to myself i wonder if he knows people think he's a complete joke or just revels in being percieved as such.

yay, Scotland/England kick off finally!! ffs it took 3 pages!!!

let's have it!!!

 ;nemesis; ;nemesis; ;nemesis;

Ban stick waiting.....


;)

ffs is there one person on blonde with an iq above a 12 year old?

the problem with being PC is that once it starts no one knows where the borderlines are

PC is brought in to stop people bullying others throught there differences

so its not the words that are said that are offensive its the way they are used

if i am at a wheelchair basket game and a team mate was to call me a cripple i would not take offence

but if i was rolling down the street and some stranger was to say "get out the way cripple" then  i would take offense and deck the guy, now i have overheard a few kids comment to there parents comparing me to some character in little britain, it doesnt offend me as there is no malice meant in there comments

carol thatcher was brought up in an age where the golliwog is a toy and plastered on jam jars, i truely feel she meant no harm in the statement however much i hate the word, its use here should not have been considered offensive

clarkson, i like this guy, but his statement was wrong on so many way, it used disabilty and nationality as a way to belittle gordon brown, this to me is a serious misconduct and a much worse offence than thatchers as he made the statement with malice where carol made hers with ignorance

You're just getting stroppy because no one bought your house yet

http://www.sva-auctions.co.uk/html/Lots/lot44_details.html

Banks deciding to lend busto fish money to get back into a game they can't play is the problem, not the fact that money is available to borrow. Thatcher could only give the fish a chance to sit at the table...but she cant be held responsible for how badly they played.

that's not his gaff

He hasent got as good an internet connection as that gaff!

thats cause its an auction and bidding hasnt finished yet

man i thought you had a few brain cells obviously i was wrong

Interesting that a lot of people focus on how England needs Scotland when they make the independence argument, rather than focus on how Scotland can be independent.

I really can't see it...

As to Tinseltowns remark lol..Slovakia, Finland, Norway,Denmark, lithuania,Latvia, Slovenia, New Zealand, Ireland, iceland etc etc etc

Are you serious? Slovakia, Latvia, Slovenia and Iceland are amongst the countries you think prove that Scotland can make it? 3 of them are nothing more than propped up developing countries and Iceland is bankrupt (coincidentally..Scotland would be now as well) Ireland has a MASSIVE debt and this will bite them in the arse soon enough.

Really, Scotland is in a right state already..the NHS is no good, the education system isn't all that grand really...the benefit system is a joke. Teenage pregnancy rate is through the roof, herion abuse is ridiculously high as are the alcoholism rates. (Admittedly a lot of these problems are UK wide but Scotland gets more money spent on them per person than, say England does....so it's fair enough to say Scotland should be in a better way)
Scotland has no major companies to speak off that are doing well enough. Since devolution the Scottish parliament has shown absolutely nothing that gives anyone any confidence in their abilities. The SNP has made promises but failed miserably when it comes to delivering on those promises and they are the ones that advocate an independent Scotland.

I'm proud
to say the nearest Tory MP has his constituency over 100 miles from me. I look forward to the day when Scotland takes its place amongst the worlds nations
and I'll tell you this a Tory victory at the next election will guarantee it....
I don't know where this Tory hatred comes from...other than pure ignorance and simply living in the past...it's a common thing in Scotland and does noone any favours.
You should have better politicians in Scotland in all parties; The SNP, Labour the Scottish Tories and LibDems are all filled with second rate politicians...until you get some better ones I really wouldn't wish independence on you.

Well feck off home!

scotland is his home

as the snp says if we get indepance anyone living in scotland can consider themself a scot


scotland cannot afford to go it alone anymore we are 30 years too late

all the north sea money has gone to enriching the m25 innercurcuit and the tory hinterland of the se of england

its now time for those people who lived off our oil for the past 30 years to pay us back by supporting our micky mouse government

+1

Really, Scotland is in a right state already..the NHS is no good, the education system isn't all that grand really...the benefit system is a joke. Teenage pregnancy rate is through the roof, herion abuse is ridiculously high as are the alcoholism rates. (Admittedly a lot of these problems are UK wide but Scotland gets more money spent on them per person than, say England does....so it's fair enough to say Scotland should be in a better way)
Scotland has no major companies to speak off that are doing well enough. Since devolution the Scottish parliament has shown absolutely nothing that gives anyone any confidence in their abilities. The SNP has made promises but failed miserably when it comes to delivering on those promises and they are the ones that advocate an independent Scotland.

Well Boldie...the Union has worked well hasn't it??..sounds like we have nothing to lose does it.???...Thanks for making my point.

I'm proud
to say the nearest Tory MP has his constituency over 100 miles from me. I look forward to the day when Scotland takes its place amongst the worlds nations
and I'll tell you this a Tory victory at the next election will guarantee it....
I don't know where this Tory hatred comes from...other than pure ignorance and simply living in the past...it's a common thing in Scotland and does noone any favours.
You should have better politicians in Scotland in all parties; The SNP, Labour the Scottish Tories and LibDems are all filled with second rate politicians...until you get some better ones I really wouldn't wish independence on you.


[/quote]

I take it you never lived through the 80's in Scotland??...You do not have a clue!!..ignorance??...Poll tax, warrant sales, fship yard closures, pit closures, our oil revenues bank rolling 3m unemployed, student loans,honest working men fighting for their livlelihood branded the enemy within etc etc.
The point regarding the conservative MP is this..There is one in Scotland...one..Some English people ( Jeremy is one of them) feel their country is being run by
Scots. At least there are a few hundred English labour MP's. If the Tories win the next election they will have no mandate to rule Scotland..The people who remember the 80's and clearly you are not one of them will not stand for it..That was my point.

 Td Th

I take it you never lived through the 80's in Scotland??...You do not have a clue!!..ignorance??...Poll tax, warrant sales, fship yard closures, pit closures, our oil revenues bank rolling 3m unemployed, student loans,honest working men fighting for their livlelihood branded the enemy within etc etc.
The point regarding the conservative MP is this..There is one in Scotland...one..Some English people ( Jeremy is one of them) feel their country is being run by
Scots. At least there are a few hundred English labour MP's. If the Tories win the next election they will have no mandate to rule Scotland..The people who remember the 80's and clearly you are not one of them will not stand for it..That was my point.

 Td Th
[/quote]

labour have no mandate to run england at present but they have done for over 10 years, we are a united kingdom and a vote in scotland means the same as one in england so dispite the gact only 18% of scots will vote tory and 24% vote the tartan tories scotland will have to take its turn in living in a country ruled by the south of england

oh and i remember the 80s i also remember the 70s and the 90s and the first 8 years of this decade

scotland will have to take its turn in living in a country ruled by the south of england


No we wont...not this time..we'll have a chance to vote for an indepedent Scotland..The SNP will only get stronger in the next few years...It's time!

no they wont, the snp know that we have lost our chance at self rule, we cant support ourself anymore, within the next 10 years scotland will be needing more and more support from the south of england where all our money went after we knocked back our chance of home rule 30 years ago

this.

But my point is that living in the 80s does not do Scotland any favours...not voting Tory simply because of what happened in the 80s is not good. I am no Tory voter by any stretch of the imagination but to discard a political party because of something that happened 20-30 years ago is not sensible.

oh and guess who would benifit the most from a scotish home rule

the tories

they would be unbeatable in the uk parliment
and with no more need for the SNP all the rural and coastal villages and towns would revert to there normal voting pattern of torie making them the largest party in scotland again

This is confusing..If Scotland gained independence, why would it care who rules England.??.it would have the same relevance as who ruled Denmark. Scotland has rejected the Tories. It done so long before the recent resurgence of the Nationalist so I doubt we turn back to them..and if we did they'd be Scots Tories and not answerable to London.

  Td Th

tory is a tory no matter where they are from

any politian left in scotland would be 2nd rate (just look at our "government in holyrood")

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. The more power our parliament has the bettter the standard of politician it'll attract. I believe in the intelligence, integrity, industry and ingenuity of the Scottish people.

'Build it and they will come'...:-)

 Td Th


 

no one will want to be part of a bankraupt parliment

where is the money going to come from to support scotland

manufacturing is almost dead in scotland, oil and gas is running out, leaving tourism which isnt enough to support 6 million people. that tourism dollar will be cut by the rush to find a subsitute for the oil and gas money as pilons, and turbines are thrown up over this beautifull land with the rush to make "green energy".

by the time of the next election the UK will be in the middle of a massive recession which we are just starting nowm if scotland was to get an independance vote we would be gaining that as the UK was coming out, but this will be a backward step as the few remaining companys in scotland move south causing scotland to slip back into a recession

scotland had its chance for independance in the 70s the labour strongholds of glasgow rejected this and now we will have to wait till we have the right curcumstance too occur for scotland to be able to stand on its own 2 feet again

Come on Ironside.

Give us a chance. You say that in the future we'll be able to stand on our own two feet. We can do that now.
I've never really been able to take seriously the arguments against independence. Those arguments are all based on the assumption that the Scots, uniquely among the peoples of the world, are incapable of making their country better.

Read this about New Zealand...why can we be like this.......http://www.snp.org/node/262

btw..I'm not an SNP member or activist I just feel we'd be better off.

Anyway, we'll all have a chance soon to vote.

 Td Th

TBH - I'm not bothered about Scotland becoming independent or not - I'm fed up of the fact that it is acceptable for there to be  such hatred expressed so readily against the English -  and yet no one bats an eyelid.

What I'm more concerned about is the fact that people feel free to comment on Thatcher's private conversation.

Do i find her comments palatable - no.
Why is the weasel who decided it was so important to break confidence not being scrutinised for their motive?

1984? Pah 2009 is the year double speak bit everyone on the arse.

if Scotland gets independence will they allow Jeremy Clarkson in?

"As far as we understand she believes that it wasn't racist, it was meant in jest."
[/quote]

That quote comes from Thatcher's spokesperson.  So because it was in jest, its all ok.

Its unnaceptable.

Yes, so someone can give him an almighty foot up the arse and kick him back to where he came from.  Twat.

Who says that it is acceptable?

Clarkson can take the piss out of Scottish folk as much as he likes. It's all a joke isn't it? For entertainment and that.
I can't get antsy about that without giving up my right to slag off English people (and I'm not ready to do that.) :)

Politicians are fair game, always have been, that won't ever change.

Adding disability into the mix is maybe going a bit too far, but Clarkson wouldn't be funny if he didn't occasionaly skirt the boundaries of what is acceptable. The inevitable consequence of this is that sometimes he's going to fall on the wrong side of the line.

Not enough to get me to stop me watching Top Gear obv.



Good posts btw Tinsel Town, articulated your position well.
Personally I'm against independance, but that's for idealogical rather than political reasons.

That quote comes from Thatcher's spokesperson.  So because it was in jest, its all ok.

Its unnaceptable.






[/quote]

You've missed the point - almost deliberately it would appear.
A private conversation, bleated by an undisclosed source who's motive is undisclosed - Orwell anyone?

I'd be more worried about government policy than someone dropping Thatcher in it (probably because they didn't like her);

General point - but it express' "national sentiment"; (IMO)

When did Scotland last support an English football team when their own team failed to qualify? Yet if England fail to qualify and Scotland do - the English fans support them...
Murray is a prime example of actively rooting for the opposing team.

There never seems to be an outcry  " in case it offends"

I'm afraid I'm missing your point - when i refer to Orwell and double speak - who is it who implements it in the public consciousness and demands culpability - even tho ministerial responsibility seems to be a theoretical concept rather than practical...


And yes - i agree it probably was that someone didn't like her - or more likely didn't like her mother's policies....

You were doing ok, but stay off the sport love.

It's the exclusive domain of men.
Ask Rookie, he'll explain.

you will be surprised at how many thousands of scots will support england in any comp as long as they are not playing scotland




fianacally we cant do it now and i am PRO indepance and was a supporter of the snp for many years

scotland isnt fit enough to stand on its own at the moment  NZ is a whole different ball game done at a much better time for them
and in a totally different part of the world

the SNP used to be a sole give us our own country one policy party

now they are confusing it with other popularist policys like no to nuclear power etc etc and have gotten into the areana of trying to run scotland, they were formed on the understanding they would disband when they got indpendance not try and run scotland
they dont have the politians strong enough to run the country, alex salmon doesnt want to be first minister he would rather be in westminster but the SNP knew they didnt have anyone else capable of being first minister

will we get a vote on independance

not likely as none of the 3 major parties would support a vote,

Splitting the Union would likely just cause all of us to sink further into this current mire that has engulfed us all. Put your national pride and enmity for those across the border aside, there's no longer a place for it. Time to wake up to reality for some people, I think. There's no benefit except economically cripple us both, as well as more evident social side effects.

As for Thatcher and Clarkson, while I am generally an advocate for "Ignorance is not an excuse." I think you have to accept that her generation are unlikely to perceive this as 'insulting' as opposed to the current PC brigade that have blown everything out of proportion and criminalised everything. Jeremy on the other hand was well aware of what he was saying and appreciated that it's an inappropriate comment to make, not least in public.

Personal opinion, of course.

I hardly think that this qualifies as the "hatred" you alluded to in your OP - although it is a cultural anachronism. 

 

Ohh dear how did we get to this point, Quite frankly the whole Scottish / English thing has been done to death, Guess what Folks the Scots got smacked about it almost every fight ever fought with the English, now what I don't get ism, We are a Tiny Island and we have 3 Nations on it yet we cant wait to take shots at each other.  I am past caring who did what to who and why it was done. 

Now Independence, Don't be so silly, we are all reliant on each other, to separate us would just be a stupid thing to do, the country is stretched thin as it is. Not to mention the only long sustainable product Scotland has left is water, possibly wind and wave farms for energy but that requires HUGE investment and would kill the beauty of the land.

I for one would leave this country given half the chances I had in my youth,

Who wants to stay in a junkie ridden, Sectarian, Corrupt country???   

So before we all have a barney about lets go it alone and we are so great, please take off the rose tinted glasses.

end of rant

Yeah there is 50,000 of them at ibrox every other week.  They really showed their true colours when they went to manchester, so much show they started acting like english hooligans who visit other european cities.

You lot!!!!!! ::)

Ling I don't hate the English, some of my family are english, I hate what they've done to my country though & I feel Scotland is in the position of the abused wife, scared to demand a divorce because the abusive husband is constantly telling us we can't make it on our own. You can see those sentiments from posts from other Scots. I want a divorce & I think we deserve it. England' government lied through their teeth last time we got a vote on it, Thatcher broke the treaty of Union & just said it didn't count. It's time we went our own way & the we might get on with the closest people to us - but at the moment they're abusing us & holding us down - I CAN'T accept that.

when u guys go indy can you take crash gordon back with you plz.

is there a lot of farming in scotland? manufacturing? exports?

don't you get stuff like student grants, school dinners and hospital parking free?

seems like it's maybe not the best time for scotland but with the upcoming depression it might well be good for england?

interested in the economics of it, iceland is busto

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/iceland/4540835/Iceland-downfall-of-a-foolish-little-nation.html

ireland very close to busto, the dell factory that is shutting down was responsible for 4% of their GDP FFS and the construction industry which is on it's knees was something stupid like 25%. The UK as a whole is close to busto, we import everything, don't make anything blah blah blah and I think I read somewhere that 40% of scottish workers are employed in the public sector. So if we're fucked together it seems like scotland would be far more fucked on it's own?

interesting subject, what would have to be done to get scotland self sufficient?

Have you finally finished editing?  Can ppl answer now?

get back some of its industys like ship building, farming,fishing whisky, steel, gas etc etc which we had in abundance the last time we had a vote on independace which was voted down by the massive english intrest in our money.

we have nothing left so the 3 english partys wouldnt mind casting us adrift now

I am happy to be both Scottish and British. I strongly oppose Scottish independence and don't know how anyone of sound mind can honestly think it good thing for the future of the country. The time for Scottish independence passed us by a long time ago and I can only think that those who still want it are hanging onto some romantic ideal rather than using the grey matter between their ears. Independence would be a disaster for Scotland and I am confident our economy would collapse as the best and brightest stampede south of the border and many big businesses do the same. Then there's the real likelihood of civil unrest as I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't take a break from the union peacefully. Thankfully I don't think it will ever happen and I hope Alex Salmond and his cronies do have a vote on it soon, it should confirm what he probably already knows, there is little appetite for Scottish independence.
I don't like to post on political topics on public forums but I feel strongly about this topic and I believe the continued speculation about independence is damaging to Scotland and investment in it's economy.   

Just lol!

If there was little appetite for independence the SNP would never have been elected  in the first place.  The way the country is going there is more appetite for independence now that there was 10 years ago, which is supported by the opinion polls.  Also its for the Scottish people to decide not 'Alex Salmond and his cronies'.

The election of the SNP was to the devolved Scottish parliament which can deal only with devolved issues, although full independence is a policy of the SNP it was not part of the manifesto they were elected on. The SNP capitalised on the unpopularity of Labour at the time and the shambles which was the Scottish Labour party,  even then it was the list MSPs that got them in. They used populist policies to get in as well and I'm confident we will as a nation still pay the price for some of these policies. 

I have seen first hand how they operate too when campaigning, they do seek out soft targets. The day before the last election for the Scottish parliament I was in East Kilbride Village as Salmond and some cronies hit the campaign trail. I watched with interest how they went about it, he seemed particularly keen on getting the pensioner vote as he certainly charmed the old ladies and gents, it was quite amazing how he homed in on them. He and his crew passed me and my wife on at least three occasions that day, none of them (their local MSP candidates, councillors, helpers) attempted to speak to us or seek our vote, this was true of a lot of people under 65. 

Mr Salmond is a very clever politician, always to be seen clinging to the coat tails of any Scottish success, never a peep or sighting when things go tits up though. He has populist policies which appeal to a lot of people who have no real interest in politics but think it's good to have free prescriptions and no bridge tolls but don't look at the bigger picture. These could well get him re-elected before he's found out.

However I am confident that if there is a referendum on it Scotland would remain part of the UK, especially in the current climate, then again maybe I give the voting public too much credit and real economic disaster awaits.

they got less than 40% of the vote they will need 70% to get independance through

Not really, that was the little trick played last time to make sure that the majority vote could be ignored. The Act of the Union doesn't impose any figure beyond a majority.

Just a thought but I completed some sort of political swing quiz recently and one of the questions was something like:  Should you be proud of where you are from just because you happen to have been bornthere?   I like being Scottish, I also like being British, I also like being European and a human being..........  Perhaps this doesn't strictly relate to the Independant Scotland question but I know a lot of Scots who only want an independant Scotland due to their National Pride and as previously mentioned, a romantic vision...

As for Carol Thatcher and Jeremy Clarkson, the whole PC issue is very much a matter of opinion and I'm not sure how that could be addressed in an overall "PC scale".  It would be interesting to hear from those who were talked about and whether they are actually bothered - do we know?  Is the tennis player still around to comment?

Interesting thing in the Times today.

Mr Cameron has said that "If I were to be prime minister I'd try to make devolution work and work closely with the devolved governments".

Mr Salmonds reply" The Scottish people will never forget what 18 years of Tory rule has brought them"

GG WP Salmond, you giant giant tool.

Salmond hasn't met Brown in the past year (though they have spoken over the phone) so he's not working well with Labour down south and is already throwing his toys out of the pram just in case Cameron gets elected. Very mature and it only re-enforces my belief that Scotland doesn't have 1st class politicians. Your prime minister lives 13 years in the past...what chance have you got as an independent nation?

i listened to a debate on this i was trying to sleep this morning on radio scotland

constantly people arguing for independance claimed that MOST scots wanted it

but the guy hosting the show keep bringing forward the latest polls with less that 40% of the voters wanting it

so even if we do get a vote on the issue how are we going to get the people to vote for it

espically now with so many people coming in from europe and england who would all have a right to vote

I'm not overly confident of an independence referendum succeeding at the moment for the SNP, but to say there is little or no appetite for it is wrong. 

WTF??

Why would Salmond want to work alongside Cameron?  The Tories campaigned tooth and nail against devolution.  Did you ever live in Scotland during Thatchers reign?  Cameron is a wolf in sheeps clothing all tories are the same rotten to the core, everything they work on is based on pure self interest and is aimed at the rich becoming richer and the poor becoming poorer.

Sometimes I wonder if your actually for real, I think you read things in the paper and just take it as Gospel.

Whats wrong with what Salmond said, here was mearly stating a point.  

so you dont want labour and you dont want the tories then who do you want running SCOTLAND as come independance it will be the same 2 parties that will be in control as the SNP will disolve

At a guess, the socialist party?

more chance of elvis become the nex us president

But not as long a shot as you being on countdown's dictionary corner.

The SFP!

the SFP? the scotlands fckup party?

for the pasrt 10 years we have the best scotish politiians running the UK and guess what they are no better than the best england had to offer

we are not going to suddenly find 120 new politians that can magically lift the country past the intial 6 months feel good factor

In one.  But definitely not the likes of the SSP.

I would like to see a broadbased political party that worked for everyone of us and not just a selection.  Independence would kill off New Labour, it would get rid of the Tories and the Lib Debs well who gives a fuck about them.

There are lots of good local politicians and ground workers in a lot of the political parties, some joiner the bigger parties hoping to change from within, some join the smaler parties hoping to garner support, some just become apathetic because of the ways main stream political parties try  manipulate the elections (at party, local and national level) by getting good hardworkers out with smears, gerrymandering and obstructing democracy because they no longer believe in the way the party is working.

Sadly the majority of Labours votes come in strongholds in which the people don't know better.  They vote Labour because their mammy's and daddies voted labour.  The recent Glasgow East by-election was a wake up call to the Scottish Labour Party and I hope John Mason goes on to become half efficient at Westminister as he was within the halls of Glasgow City Chambers because if he does he will do a grand job.

There are a few decent people in the Labour party who do some excellent constituency based worked but because they don't shape up and follow the party lead they are ostracised yet they stick in there hoping to change things because they are "true Labour".

Really?  Who are these best politicians that you speak of?

Gordon Brown hahaha
Ali Darling lol
John Reid - murdering bassa!! 
Douglas Alexander - nh gg wp.  I do everything that Uncle Gordon tells me.

Who else would you consider to be in their?

The best Scottish MP's in the Labour Party got nowhere near powers of position.

rotflmfao ...wow, just wow.

?

Excellent.

Showing a bit of love to get what you want is obv a strat with too many meta levels for Salmond.

you just answered my question

dont forget blair who is scottish by birth

First point if that's as the Times reports it then someone's at it. The rest of Cameron's quote was along the lines of he'd do anything in his power to prevent Scottish Independance. Puts Salmond's reply in a totally different light no?

And remembering Thatcher & the destruction of major industry in Scotland isn't living in the past - because it's affecting our present. Hence the smug "Scotland's got no industry, how would you survive" comments.

Sad line of debate Iron. You advocate staying under the rule of a country who couldn't put up anyone better?  ;dingdell;

The rest of Cameron's quote was along the lines of he'd do anything in his power to prevent Scottish Independance. Puts Salmond's reply in a totally different light no?

No, not really buddy. How does Salmond's comment/attitude about the Tories previous regime get today's Scotland closer to independence? It just doesn't. So why say it? A politician with class would pursuit a strat that gets him closer to his country's ultimate goal in spite of history and his own angst about it. Your defence is because Cameron said x Salmond can retaliate in kind and it's ok. That's like saying Prescott was ok to lamp the egg-thrower because the egg-thrower started it. Maybe he was, but he still looked like a bumbling idiot throwing his wild punches at people rather than a politician with dignity and purpose.

Yes, history affects the present but we're debating the future. The future is determined by the present so why dredge up the past at any opportunity just cos of what Cameron or anyone else says? A politician looking forward into the light rather than back to the dark would have class. The world is changing, as we have seen in America, so hanging onto the past is just restricting his own country's progress imo and clearly shows the guy is either bitter or stupid.

Debating the future is OK when you can control your own future. Personally I find the desire from politicians to whitewash what's been done wrong in the past to be totally lacking in class, but hey you're allowed your own view as am I.

My point still stands, the Times tried to make Salmond out to be a churlish Scots rebel snapping at the hand of friendship using misleading quotes & some have bought it. Instead he was rightly warning that the party that so abused Scotland (to the point of breaking the law of the Union), hasn't changed its' spots, and that there's plenty with a long enough memory not to blythely vote them in because of a few weasel words.

I dunno buddy. Nelson Mandela put up with a lot of shit didn't he? I would suggest that his country's attitude to black people trumped the English attitude to Scots, and he also did a long stretch inside for pratically nothing. When he came out he didn't snipe or incite hatred he just carried himself with dignity and class. And South Africa moved forward.

no i am advocating that if this is the best scotland can produce then we are in a right hole look what they have done to the UK


but my main arguement is that since the 70s scotland was handing over its cast revenues to the south of england which has profited at scotlands expense, now scotland has nothing england is having to support us using the barnet formula scotland hasnt had it so good compared to england, lets get scotland moving again BEFORE we cut the ties and go it alone. the time for independace is not now it was 30 years ago and sometime in the future but this is the wrong time.

Mandela's statement on his release.....


Doesn't come across as let's forget what has happened and go skipping through the tulips hand in hand to me. He did a while later call for an end to the armed struggle just in time for the free elections. His work in enabling the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission is highly commendable of course, a setup I think should be brought to Northern Ireland once the ceasefire is fully implemented IMHO.

Still doesn't seem like a 'lets all forget the past' argument to me.

How will Scotland get moving under a British Government then? And by the way the governemnt that LIED about Scotland's ability to be self-sifficient in the 70's is the same party casting doubt on everything now. Fool me once, fool on me???

blonde referendum on whether the scots should have their own forum imo

the mistake they are making now is no-one is leading a massive pro union campaign that there was in the 70s, because the major partys in the UK know they would be better off without scotland ATM, when scotland is ready to go it alone you watch as the tories and labour kick off with big adverts with how scotland is better off in the union, and the people will have forgot the last 30 years and fall for it again

I would love to have the power to grant Scotland independence ...

blondes could quite easily form the Scottish government ...

Fergus for Chancellor OBV.
Ironside for Education minister
Ecosse for Foreign Secretary



Im sure you guys can come up with some others :)

i am highly educated tyvm i just cant type or spealt

We express the hope that a climate conducive to a negotiated settlement would be created soon

That would have been a much classier response to Cameron's comments imo.

I'm not sure what my minesterial responibilitis will be, but I assume that when this government forms I'm going to be doing the interviews on newsnight?