Ruling / Ethics situation at DTD

[cambridgealex]

On the flop 823r, players Andrew and Bertie check, player Carol bets about 1/4 of her stack. Andrew goes allin, Bertie goes allin. Action on Carol. This is where it gets interesting. A few things happen all in quick succession. I'll describe it as best I can.

-Carol exclaims "Argh I've run into trips here" and then throws her cards (AA) face up over the line (from seat 5), saying nothing else.

Taking this as a fold, the next three things happen almost instantaneously

-Andrew and Bertie turn their cards over
-The dealer mucks Carol's Aces
-Carol says "woah what are you doing I'm calling, I meant to call"

Floor is called. Carol can see that her AA are beat by Bertie's 22, though this should be irrelevant to the ruling imo. Carol admits she forgot to say "call" or anything, and is clearly genuine about this - since she is still professing she meant to call despite seeing Bertie's set. The Floor rules that the hand is still live and should be retrieved from the muck, and she has all options open.

I know DTD don't kill hands that are exposed on the river before action is completed. You get a penalty, but they don't kill your hand. This seems fair in many situations, but in this one it certainly didn't seem fair. Imagine if Carol saw KK and QQ, would she still be allowed to have her  hand back? It shouldn't be relevant what cards are turned over though.

This ruling means I can do this: throw my hand faceup over the line facing an allin / multiple allins, wait to see what I'm up against, then keep quiet if I was behind, or claim I meant to call if I'm in front.

The second issue brought up is what should Carol do now? Change her mind? Go with her original intention, even though everyone at the table assumed she was folding?

[George2Loose]

Let her see the turn and river too then decide

[cambridgealex]

Let her see the turn and river too then decide

14230

[George2Loose]

In all seriousness I think once the other two have revealed their cards her hand should be declared dead

[Tal]

The authorities (Dealer/TD) have to decide what Carol's intention was.

You believe, in this case, she meant to call. So she should call. That's whether she wants to (because she has the best hand) or not (because she's in trouble).

She might say she meant to call but the chaps in black, long-sleeved shirts and red ties don't believe her. Or, she might say she intended to muck and but is told she's telling porkies.

The cards are easily identifiable, so the primary question is what Carol intended to do. In this example, we are confident of the answer, so that's what we do.

[Boba Fett]

I think she should get her cards back and all options open to her.  She hasnt been totally clear about her action but the other players have jumped the gun and flipped their hands before the dealer has mucked the aces.  As soon as the dealer has tried to muck her hand she speaks up and tries to stop the action asap (or at least its how it sounds from your post).  The other players should know this and not flip their hands until the aces are mucked and I presume the dealer should be double checking that its a fold as he or she is mucking the cards.

Aces would have the chance to benefit now, itll be a lesson for the other 2 to not expose your hand while another hand may be live.

[The Camel]

If the words Carol said are being reported correctly, it certainly appears like a fold to me.

Therefore I agree with Tal. Hand should be dead.

Retrieving cards from the muck sets a bad precedent IMO. Even if they have been opened.

[MANTIS01]

The authorities/TD have to decide what Carol's intention was?? What a head fuck! Why can't Carol just verbalise what her intention is in the first place?? and save everybody the headache?? Hand dead 100% and an hour of washing up in the kitchen to teach her a lesson.

[Jon MW]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

[david3103]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

All card rooms favour regulars over occasional visitors. Virtually unavoidable to do so, although they should work hard to stop it happening.

[cambridgealex]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

All card rooms favour regulars over occasional visitors. Virtually unavoidable to do so, although they should work hard to stop it happening.

Agree. To be completely honest, had the guy had me beat or even had a flush draw and wanted to retrieve his hand after doing that - there's no way I would've "allowed" that ruling and I would've made a fuss and pretty sure the guys had would've been ruled dead. Quite clearly you shouldn't be allowed to throw your cards face-up over the line without saying anything to induce your opponents to turn their cards over. Every poker player on the planet would have taken his actions as a fold, and as the dealer is mucking the cards, turn their cards over.

[Boba Fett]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

All card rooms favour regulars over occasional visitors. Virtually unavoidable to do so, although they should work hard to stop it happening.

Agree. To be completely honest, had the guy had me beat or even had a flush draw and wanted to retrieve his hand after doing that - there's no way I would've "allowed" that ruling and I would've made a fuss and pretty sure the guys had would've been ruled dead. Quite clearly you shouldn't be allowed to throw your cards face-up over the line without saying anything to induce your opponents to turn their cards over. Every poker player on the planet would have taken his actions as a fold, and as the dealer is mucking the cards, turn their cards over.

From your OP, the other players flipped their cards before the aces were mucked by the dealer.  Im not sure if theres a specific rule at DTD, but in UKIPT or EPT for example, if you flip your hand Im 99% sure you still have all options open but you get a penalty depending on how intentional it was.  If this is the case here then yes, Carol hasnt been clear in her intention but she has reacted quickly when the dealer has tried to muck her hand to clarify.

If the other 2 players hadnt flipped their hands and Carol is asked if she is calling or folding she obviously still has both options open, so I dont see why that should change because the other 2 flipped their hand too early.

[UgotNuts]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

All card rooms favour regulars over occasional visitors. Virtually unavoidable to do so, although they should work hard to stop it happening.

Good to know we all play by the same rules.

[mondatoo]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

All card rooms favour regulars over occasional visitors. Virtually unavoidable to do so, although they should work hard to stop it happening.

Interested in hearing any examples of how this is unavoidable ?

Very well done to the person who was honest enough to say they wanted to call having seen the hands, respect.

[GreekStein]

I think cards can be retrieved from the muck in some situations - like if an action was declared and the dealer mistakenly mucks the cards - not in this situation though.

An additional problem with leaving it up to the TD to judge what the player meant is that it will favour regulars over the occasional visitor and I really don't think that's the kind of card room that DTD should aim to be.

All card rooms favour regulars over occasional visitors. Virtually unavoidable to do so, although they should work hard to stop it happening.

Agree. To be completely honest, had the guy had me beat or even had a flush draw and wanted to retrieve his hand after doing that - there's no way I would've "allowed" that ruling and I would've made a fuss and pretty sure the guys had would've been ruled dead. Quite clearly you shouldn't be allowed to throw your cards face-up over the line without saying anything to induce your opponents to turn their cards over. Every poker player on the planet would have taken his actions as a fold, and as the dealer is mucking the cards, turn their cards over.

Since you allowed him to call even though he knew he was winning, what would you have done if he hadn't said anything but made the same action with middle set?