Mayfair Casino witholding Ivey's winnings

[Tal]

Not sure what to think, is it cheating or isn't it?

I thought not.  But a friend of mine asked me:  If you're walking past a bank and all the windows are smashed and the vault is open are you OK to help yourself to the money?

Im not sure I agree with this as the casino put their money out there to be won.  They're perfectly happy to take your money when the odds are in their favour, but dont want to pay out when the tables are turned.

this would be stealing as it is still the banks property. If a cash machine had a flaw that you noticed if you pressed the £10 and it gave you a £20...you're within your rights to keep it - morally maybe not, but legally I believe you are.

Same with a till, you pay what is displayed, so if a ticket price shows £25 but the till displays 25p, you pay 25p!.  If you knew aisle 4 till was flawed when entering fruit, where would you buy all your fruit from?!

Are you sure about any of this?

[RED-DOG]

Not sure what to think, is it cheating or isn't it?

I thought not.  But a friend of mine asked me:  If you're walking past a bank and all the windows are smashed and the vault is open are you OK to help yourself to the money?

Im not sure I agree with this as the casino put their money out there to be won.  They're perfectly happy to take your money when the odds are in their favour, but dont want to pay out when the tables are turned.

I think you will find that all of the above examples would be classed as stealing.

this would be stealing as it is still the banks property. If a cash machine had a flaw that you noticed if you pressed the £10 and it gave you a £20...you're within your rights to keep it - morally maybe not, but legally I believe you are.

Same with a till, you pay what is displayed, so if a ticket price shows £25 but the till displays 25p, you pay 25p!.  If you knew aisle 4 till was flawed when entering fruit, where would you buy all your fruit from?!

[tikay]

Not sure what to think, is it cheating or isn't it?

I thought not.  But a friend of mine asked me: If you're walking past a bank and all the windows are smashed and the vault is open are you OK to help yourself to the money?

Im not sure I agree with this as the casino put their money out there to be won.  They're perfectly happy to take your money when the odds are in their favour, but dont want to pay out when the tables are turned.

Try turning that upside down.

If your friend left a £10 note on his desk at work does the bloke who sits next to him have the right to steal it if your friend turns his back or pops to the loo?

[titaniumbean]

when you go to a shop and they give incorrect change, it's your fault right?

taking 10 quid off someones desk is stealing, someone offering a service as their business and 'doing it wrong' is not YOU going out to steal is it!

[Jon MW]

Not sure what to think, is it cheating or isn't it?

I thought not.  But a friend of mine asked me:  If you're walking past a bank and all the windows are smashed and the vault is open are you OK to help yourself to the money?

Im not sure I agree with this as the casino put their money out there to be won.  They're perfectly happy to take your money when the odds are in their favour, but dont want to pay out when the tables are turned.

this would be stealing as it is still the banks property. If a cash machine had a flaw that you noticed if you pressed the £10 and it gave you a £20...you're within your rights to keep it - morally maybe not, but legally I believe you are.

Same with a till, you pay what is displayed, so if a ticket price shows £25 but the till displays 25p, you pay 25p!.  If you knew aisle 4 till was flawed when entering fruit, where would you buy all your fruit from?!

Are you sure about any of this?

If a bank makes a mistake then you still have to pay it back if they ask for it, the amount at the till is slightly more complicated.

It's a contract, both sides have to agree to the terms. If the till says 25p the shop has offered the contract, you can accept that contract but then the shop still has to confirm it's side of the contract - they don't have to, just like if an internet promotion shows completely the wrong price, they can just say no.

I'm pretty confused why people are comparing outright stealing to tilting the odds in your favour - surely the only sensible comparison is to card counting in blackjack?

[Tal]

Not sure what to think, is it cheating or isn't it?

I thought not.  But a friend of mine asked me:  If you're walking past a bank and all the windows are smashed and the vault is open are you OK to help yourself to the money?

Im not sure I agree with this as the casino put their money out there to be won.  They're perfectly happy to take your money when the odds are in their favour, but dont want to pay out when the tables are turned.

this would be stealing as it is still the banks property. If a cash machine had a flaw that you noticed if you pressed the £10 and it gave you a £20...you're within your rights to keep it - morally maybe not, but legally I believe you are.

Same with a till, you pay what is displayed, so if a ticket price shows £25 but the till displays 25p, you pay 25p!.  If you knew aisle 4 till was flawed when entering fruit, where would you buy all your fruit from?!

Are you sure about any of this?

If a bank makes a mistake then you still have to pay it back if they ask for it, the amount at the till is slightly more complicated.

It's a contract, both sides have to agree to the terms. If the till says 25p the shop has offered the contract, you can accept that contract but then the shop still has to confirm it's side of the contract - they don't have to, just like if an internet promotion shows completely the wrong price, they can just say no.

I'm pretty confused why people are comparing outright stealing to tilting the odds in your favour - surely the only sensible comparison is to card counting in blackjack?

Exactly, Jon.

But need I remind my learnèd friend of the case of Finders v Keepers?

[Delboy]

Hypothetically:

You're playing head up poker against someone you have a small edge over.
They beat you for about $12.1m, and as they are getting up to cash out, you notice that there are irregularities in the deck that you feel they must have exploited.

What would you do? 

[The Camel]

As far as I understand it he wasn't CERTAIN to win most hands.

In punto banco you can be dealt a maximum of 6 cards, he was only seeing 4 of them.

A huge edge, but not free money.

[doubleup]

lol this wasn't a fortunate happenstance of stumbling across a marked deck.  

Ivey went to the casino accompanied by a woman who was an expert at noticing irregular decks.

He asked for several deck changes

When a suitable deck was found he insisted that it was never changed

His companion asked the dealer in chinese to rotate certain cards "for luck"

After the deck was orientated to his liking, Ivey asked for stakes to be increased and crushed

[kinboshi]

lol this wasn't a fortunate happenstance of stumbling across a marked deck. 

Ivey went to the casino accompanied by a woman who was an expert at noticing irregular decks.

He asked for several deck changes

When a suitable deck was found he insisted that it was never changed

His companion asked the dealer in chinese to rotate certain cards "for luck"

After the deck was orientated to his liking, Ivey asked for stakes to be increased and crushed

Agreed, he knew exactly what he was doing.

But so should the casino, surely?

[Jon MW]

lol this wasn't a fortunate happenstance of stumbling across a marked deck.  

Ivey went to the casino accompanied by a woman who was an expert at noticing irregular decks.

He asked for several deck changes

When a suitable deck was found he insisted that it was never changed

His companion asked the dealer in chinese to rotate certain cards "for luck"

After the deck was orientated to his liking, Ivey asked for stakes to be increased and crushed

How is any of that relevant?

Everything they did was agreed to by the casino, there was no technological help and it didn't result in a certainty - there was still an element of chance; isn't that the same as card counting (if somewhat more complicated)

[doubleup]

In the Gambling Act cheating is defined as

"actual or attempted deception or interference...with.....the process by which gambling is conducted"

Ivey went to the casino with the precise intention of creating a situation where the odds of the game were changed from a small house advantage to a large Ivey advantage by effectively (via his companion) persauding the dealer to mark the cards for him.  That was his plan, there is no point in claiming anything else.

Its up to the court to decide whether this pre-meditated strategy was cheating.

The world of poker has plenty of people who would go out of their way not to take unfair advantage and unfortunately plenty who grab every angle.  But walk a mile in someones shoes etc, so each to his own.

[theprawnidentity]

Ivey went to the casino with the precise intention of creating a situation where the odds of the game were changed from a small house advantage to a large Ivey advantage by effectively (via his companion) persuading the dealer to mark the cards for him.  That was his plan, there is no point in claiming anything else.

I'm pretty sure this isn't what happened.  As I understood it, there was a manufacturing error with some of the cards and the patterns on the back were not consistant. 

But if there's no point claiming anything else then best just leave it.

[doubleup]

Ivey went to the casino with the precise intention of creating a situation where the odds of the game were changed from a small house advantage to a large Ivey advantage by effectively (via his companion) persuading the dealer to mark the cards for him.  That was his plan, there is no point in claiming anything else.

I'm pretty sure this isn't what happened.  As I understood it, there was a manufacturing error with some of the cards and the patterns on the back were not consistant. 

But if there's no point claiming anything else then best just leave it.

do you have any clue at all?

His companion asked the dealer to rotate favorable cards so that the assymetric marking would be visible at the bottom of the shoe and reveal the card when it was next dealt.  He insisted on an automatic shuffler as that would not rotate the cards as a manual shuffle would.

[titaniumbean]

the casino still accepted his requests because they thought they were going to fleece him.

is he meant to not pay attention and look at his own cards or something. clearly similar to card counting in blackjack and not being some kind of thief.