Rag ace on button

[R8APK]

Been beating myself up over this play......was it a marginal call/fold or was I being a total donk?!

EC Main event, 30odd players remaining, average stack around 70k.

I'm on the button with  with around 50k

SB(which I later found out was M3Boy, would be good for his views on this hand!) had 17k

Blinds are 800/1600 with 100 ante, 8 players

I hadn't played many hands and had created(I thought) a tight image and had already passed unopened button once or twice

I raise to 6k, SB pushes...

I call.

My thinking: 11k to call with 26k already in pot. SB seemed from his demeanour and watching/listening to him at the table etc, a well respected player, so I thought he might be making that play back at me knowing that I wasn't getting the odds to call a better ace or he was shoving with paint like kq or kj or was pushing cos I was a tight player who may fold to the re-raise.

Just for the record he had  and won pot!

Thoughts please(as its my first post in the hand analysis, do hope you'll take it easy on me!)...

[Longy]

Once you make it 6k you can't pass, you are getting odds against any reasonable range.

How much did the bb have, as if he has a similar stack to sb we can just push this pre. If not i would open to less, 4000 is fine here.

[gatso]

yeah, 6k is too much if this is unopened

you won't get paul's views as he's banned from the forum

[TheChipPrince]

Do not beat yourself up, the situation plays itself, a shove pre and the small blind probs still calls, the shove makes you 3.2k to add to 17k, an increase of about 18%, never ever fold here, the blinds will not have a hand near often enough...

[MANTIS01]

Considering your image is tight, you have a thin raising range, and you're getting good odds to call a push, villain's pushing range is tighter than people think. This means a case could be made for folding. But it can't if the result is included in the op. In all seriousness I reckon he's got something like A-J so you should fold. Shit, he did have A-J. I'm good.

[Royal Flush]

If his range is AJ+ 99+ then this is positive and that's a pretty tight range to be up against.

Obv it would me more helpful if we knew BB's stack.

[EvilPie]

M3Boy is a nit and he ain't stupid. He knows that you're not passing here so A4 is rarely good. He's always showing up with a pair or a better ace.

Raise less pre would be better and pass if he shoves unless you've been active in late position.

I know he's down to 10 bbs but he's just had his SB so has a full orbit to find a better spot than to shove where he knows he's getting called.

You've raised too much so probably have to call and hope to hit but i can't fault a pass here knowing that you're behind.

Also as others have said we need to know the BB stack. If it's similar to Paul's then you should be shoving the button with this hand. You probably get Paul to fold a few hands that beat you that he would shove to a raise. Not many but there's a couple of better aces that I think he passes as well as the small pairs.

He's never passing AJ here so the shove doesn't get through anyway but at least then you're not calling off 11k knowing that you're behind.

[GreekStein]

instacall.

[MANTIS01]

M3Boy is a nit and he ain't stupid. He knows that you're not passing here so A4 is rarely good. He's always showing up with a pair or a better ace.

Raise less pre would be better and pass if he shoves unless you've been active in late position.

I know he's down to 10 bbs but he's just had his SB so has a full orbit to find a better spot than to shove where he knows he's getting called.

You've raised too much so probably have to call and hope to hit but i can't fault a pass here knowing that you're behind.

Also as others have said we need to know the BB stack. If it's similar to Paul's then you should be shoving the button with this hand. You probably get Paul to fold a few hands that beat you that he would shove to a raise. Not many but there's a couple of better aces that I think he passes as well as the small pairs.

He's never passing AJ here so the shove doesn't get through anyway but at least then you're not calling off 11k knowing that you're behind.

Agree with that. However, compounding the initial error by calling the jam if you do figure you're almost certainly gonna be dominated is prob worth some debate. op needs to think about his strat in advance and prepare for stuff he knows could happen actually happening. Here it looks like he raised 6k on the button with a weak Ace just for the sake of raising. With his image he can raise less here so why did he raise more? With his stack 6k was kinda committing him to the hand so what was he planning to do if he got action? Answering these questions in advance is gonna make him a better player than wondering whether A-4 is worth a spin after the fact.

[EvilPie]

M3Boy is a nit and he ain't stupid. He knows that you're not passing here so A4 is rarely good. He's always showing up with a pair or a better ace.

Raise less pre would be better and pass if he shoves unless you've been active in late position.

I know he's down to 10 bbs but he's just had his SB so has a full orbit to find a better spot than to shove where he knows he's getting called.

You've raised too much so probably have to call and hope to hit but i can't fault a pass here knowing that you're behind.

Also as others have said we need to know the BB stack. If it's similar to Paul's then you should be shoving the button with this hand. You probably get Paul to fold a few hands that beat you that he would shove to a raise. Not many but there's a couple of better aces that I think he passes as well as the small pairs.

He's never passing AJ here so the shove doesn't get through anyway but at least then you're not calling off 11k knowing that you're behind.

Agree with that. However, compounding the initial error by calling the jam if you do figure you're almost certainly gonna be dominated is prob worth some debate. op needs to think about his strat in advance and prepare for stuff he knows could happen actually happening. Here it looks like he raised 6k on the button with a weak Ace just for the sake of raising. With his image he can raise less here so why did he raise more? With his stack 6k was kinda committing him to the hand so what was he planning to do if he got action? Answering these questions in advance is gonna make him a better player than wondering whether A-4 is worth a spin after the fact.

Couldn't possibly agree more.

11k to win 26k with 6k of your own chips committed means that the price is nearly right but in tournaments it's not all about pot odds.

Even though you're getting the right price you're still spending 6bbs for a pot that you're likely to lose.

The smaller raise to 4k means that it's 13k to win 24k if he shoves and is an easy pass. This is obv player dependant and I am in no way advocating that we raise with the intention of passing against everyone. That would be stupid.

In this button/SB/BB situation at this stage of tournaments (short stacks everywhere) it is vital to know how the whole hand is going to play before you commit any chips. If you're raising with a weak ace you have to know your oppos shoving range so that you know whether you are going to pass or call.

You should never have a decision here. It should already be set in your mind. Sure you can play act a bit when he shoves but you should already have known that if he shoved you knew that you were behind and passing.

[Simon Galloway]

Couple of concepts worth a mention possibly, interested in views:

As a precursor, totally agree we should solve the 'what happens next puzzle' the street before but...

1) When the BBs are relatively shallow, sizing the raise so you don't leave money on the table unnecesarily is all very well, but when the BBs grow deeper, I often wonder if someone has raised FAR too much so that they are 'priced in' to make an easier call on the next street.  I.O.W. they are making a very big mistake now so they don't make a mistake later.

2) Howe exploitable would a player be that routinely opens for a standard live raise (say 27BBs or so..) and now opens lite.  Are they leaving room for a pass more times then they are hoping for action? 

3)  When the BBs are in inbetween territory and ripe for resteal antics, some of the PHA advice I feel is geared more for online.  When live and the decision is close, shouldn't reads/tells come into it a little bit?  It is one of the benefits of playing live after all.   Online, what is a resteal all day long in the sb with A4 can now quite often be like thinking about a resteal about someone who is running stats of 2/2/inf.  3betting lite with the preconceived idea of inducing a 4bet lite suddenly goes out of the window against the old skool brigade who have never 4bet lite in their lives.  The strength-ometer is easier to read live for many players giving greater reliability to a very polarised range.  So what might have started out as a bit of harmless larceny and a reluctant spin against their full range if played back at now suddenly becomes "shit this isn't 25% open, this is QQ+ AK+ stuff.  I suppose thats pretty much the same as Matt already said above.

[R8APK]

Thanks guys....

Some really interesting stuff for me to ponder.......raising too much and thinking about further action is indeed so right and seems so simple now.......

FWIW the BB had 90k.

Not sure I understand all of the last post.......think I'll concentrate on the other advice for now!

[Simon Galloway]

I'll try and reword it with some extreme examples to make the point - it doesn't read very well.  But all said and done, it isn't advice, just discussion:

1) If you have a 50k stack with the blinds at 200/400, you can raise to 48k and then you guarantee your play on the next street to be perfect (assuming you dont somehow find a fold ldo) but making such a big mistake now to lessen a mistake later isn't a good idea.  This is to complement the discussion on thinking ahead - not arguing against it.  There is nothing wrong with open shoving 10bb's nor is there anything wrong with raising 4bbs with the intention of coming for the rest.  but many players with deeper stacks through lack of thought manage to get a thrid of their chips in the middle before realising they cant continue, inadvertently handing an iopportunity to astute opponents to put them to the test for these tricky decisions.  A little thought ahead gives you better alternatives, raise less and find a pass or raise more (or all of it) so that it is more obvious you aren't folding for the remainder.

2)I have sometimes targetted players that have made weak raises outside of their usual range when it looks like they are leaving themselves enough to pass.  This is me exploiting their raise sizing, although I could be exploited in turn by anyone switched on.  It was simply me looking for discussion on whether this sort of bet sizing has cons as well as pros.  Overall, I am still massively in favour of starting each hand with a plan, including each players stack size and what each bet is designed to achieve.  Failing that, I just shove it in, cos most of the time they can't call.

3) A simple observation that a lot of the advice on here doesn't include even the smallest consideration for live signs of strength.

[R8APK]

Thanks, even I understand that now!

Good points.......and its not rocket science either!

Sometimes just get caught in the moment without thinking things through!