Road to being a pro

[AlunB]

but the thing Tikay, Alun et al really don't follow is that a HUGE % of players could be successful, could make a living and could be winning professionals.

Looking at the top 10 guys in the UK

Trigg
Moorman
Jareth East
Charlie Combes
Toby Lewis
Connor Beresford
Chris Brammer
Middy
Myself

None of the above are your stereotypical geniuses. None went to award winning universities or I suspect were even the cleverest in their class at school, I for sure wasn't.

Almost every "lad" that likes poker could probably relate to one of the above in that list. Out of each of those 10 there was probably 1000 very similar kids who liked poker but for whatever reason didn't get into it, or didn't want to work hard enough.

The guys above rose to the top because they grinded so much, Trigg, Moorman, Brammer, Middy all played so much when they were learning, grinding day and night and learned the game together. Connor for example is a supernova elite player who went from liking mtts to studying ranges every day and getting really solid. I went from losing at 5$ sngs to learning cash games and devoting my life to poker.


Look at redarmi, arbboy, dubai etc, I'm sure they are intelligent guys, but again there will be literally 10s of thousands who can relate to them. So many guys who punt week on week on football, if they spent 60 hours a week studying form like redarmi suggested earlier then they too could potentially be as equally successful.

OP is showing the desire, he is showing signs of doing well and showing a lot of hunger. Granted its very easy to show that initial desire, the next 12 months will be the real big test, and if he spends 5 days a week really engrossing himself in poker, perhaps getting a coach to help him get to the next level and really pushes hmiself there is no reason why he cant be successful.

If you want to be a professional, then as Alex said earlier you have to be professional about it. You have to play a minimum of 5 days a week, have to study 2 days a week, poker is perhaps one of the toughest graduate schemes out there, but all of the tools are so easily accessible, the graduate % rate is very low, but thats because there's nobody to kick you up the arse like there is at university, in truth its one of the easiest ways to make a top 5% living and almost everybody could do it if they really wanted to.

Some just want it more than others.

By definition, Patrick, that (enboldened) cannot be true.

More people COULD be BETTER players, yes, & that includes Mr King. Statistically, most will fall by the wayside. They will. When we are talking with young people at the start of the journey, we ought to be straight with them.

And I don't believe, not for a second, that those guys you named (or you) were successful because "they grinded a lot". They became successful for all sorts of reasons, including hard work & talent. But grinding a lot would not help if you are not learning the right things. I know plenty who play 50 hours per week. They are of the same ability as they always were though. They are not learning, they are playing.  

I could practice my golf swing 24/7. I'd still be shite though, as I'm just ingraining my weaknesses in my muscle memory.

Yeah I think there is a lot of confirmation bias in your argument Patrick. Name drop coming in 3....2....1

Tom Dwan (remember him) once said to me anyone could learn to beat $5/$10. This has not been borne out by my experience of the poker world. I think maybe he could have taught anyone to beat $5/$10, but I'm damn sure most people couldn't teach themselves. The effort you have put into poker is WAY above what most people could or would be able to do for example.

That said I don't really disagree with your fundamental point-  that effort and desire are the two most important components of success in poker. And I don't think anyone here thinks most poker pros are geniuses

BUT

This is NOT what me and tikay are talking about. We are talking about making life EV decisions. And this seems like a very -EV decision to me.

In the VERY SHORT TERM a focus on uni will be MUCH more +EV for him. IMO obv and your miles may vary. After that knock yourself out. Give poker a go. You only live once. But don't underestimate the difference in value between a 2:2 and a 2:1. That's not an opinion, that's a fact*.

* 2:1 worth £81k on average over a lifetime compared to a 2:2 source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10088784/Good-degree-grade-worth-extra-2000-a-year-in-wages.html
So putting an extra 80 hours of work into uni and getting a 2:1 is equivalent to a lifetime £1000 per hour

[cambridgealex]

Not being baller or anything, but £2k a year difference seems like nothing in the grand scheme of things. I would've estimated it be at least £10k.

Had I continued with my degree lol I would've been far less motivated to get a 2:1 if I had known it was only 2k difference.

You could make that £2k back in a weekend playing poker rather than studying. Do that for 40 weeks during uni and get your 2:2 then you're already freerolling!

[AlunB]

Not being baller or anything, but £2k a year difference seems like nothing in the grand scheme of things. I would've estimated it be at least £10k.

Had I continued with my degree lol I would've been far less motivated to get a 2:1 if I had known it was only 2k difference.

You could make that £2k back in a weekend playing poker rather than studying. Do that for 40 weeks during uni and get your 2:2 then you're already freerolling!

Lol. Or there is that argument.

But it's one month vs a lifetime. Wouldn't you work hard for one month for £2k more a year EVERY year?

Also as I said before it does at least partially close the door on quite a few potential jobs. More each year as the number of graduates increases.

[titaniumbean]

Agree with all the long term thinking is best stuff etc, but degrees that aren't vocational are utterly worthless, 2:2 2:1 or w/e it is, it's such a shit system based on not offending anyone rather than allowing people to judge how much you achieved at uni.

Pads is still in his own little world assuming everyone is just like him, so so many people would struggle with the poker skills required to be a decent winner let alone the non poker related stuff like mental game, commitment and other outside factors.

poker in 2014 is nothing like poker in 2011 or poker in 2007, couldn't imagine a worse  time to be trying to both get into and learn the game AND move up and build a bankroll whilst also providing for yourself etc.

[arbboy]

Not being baller or anything, but £2k a year difference seems like nothing in the grand scheme of things. I would've estimated it be at least £10k.

Had I continued with my degree lol I would've been far less motivated to get a 2:1 if I had known it was only 2k difference.

You could make that £2k back in a weekend playing poker rather than studying. Do that for 40 weeks during uni and get your 2:2 then you're already freerolling!

Lol. Or there is that argument.

But it's one month vs a lifetime. Wouldn't you work hard for one month for £2k more a year EVERY year?

Also as I said before it does at least partially close the door on quite a few potential jobs. More each year as the number of graduates increases.

I don't agree with this tbh.  A 2.2 in a 'proper' subject from a top 20 (esp top 10) uni is worth substantially more than a first from Wolvehampton or Luton in media studies to potential employers who will be ultimately paying those top 10% salaries.  The 2k extra per annum is just a mass of stats all grouped together and ultimately it's a pretty meaningless stat.  Your drive/passion/contacts for your given career is far more important than simply getting a 2.1.

[Woodsey]

A degree just helps you get your first job, after that it's how good you are at that job as to whether you prosper or not.

[AlunB]

Agree with titaniumbean on most degrees being worthless as a measure of ability. But seriously a lot of employers will have essential requirements as a 2:1 these days and you're not getting past the HR gatekeeper with a 2:2.

[AlunB]

A degree just helps you get your first job, after that it's how good you are at that job as to whether you prosper or not.

Yep. But getting that first job is the hardest bit!

[pleno1]

Agree with all the long term thinking is best stuff etc, but degrees that aren't vocational are utterly worthless, 2:2 2:1 or w/e it is, it's such a shit system based on not offending anyone rather than allowing people to judge how much you achieved at uni.

Pads is still in his own little world assuming everyone is just like him, so so many people would struggle with the poker skills required to be a decent winner let alone the non poker related stuff like mental game, commitment and other outside factors.

poker in 2014 is nothing like poker in 2011 or poker in 2007, couldn't imagine a worse  time to be trying to both get into and learn the game AND move up and build a bankroll whilst also providing for yourself etc.

There's all different kinds of people/mentalities/skill sets in poker though.

I really believe that around 80-90% of people could be professional poker players if they spent as much time trying as a full time university course.

Generally the only poker players that don't win are the ones that are 1) lazy or 2) stubborn. Thankfully most poker players are both.

[MC]

Get your degree ffs.

I screwed up my last semester because of poker and ended up failing. I am incredibly lucky to have made a living out of poker ever since. I think 98% of the time I'm working in McDonalds because it all went wrong somewhere along the line. Might still happen because I'm 29 and have never had a real job and have no degree, and let's face it poker isn't getting any easier!

[theprawnidentity]

Degree / career > Poker

You can still enjoy / make money / grind and have a full time job as well.  For me I found that the best balance was having a fixed income that covers me for my fixed outgoings and puts me in a comfortable position where I can grind and not have the pressure of being dependant on it.

[titaniumbean]

Agree with all the long term thinking is best stuff etc, but degrees that aren't vocational are utterly worthless, 2:2 2:1 or w/e it is, it's such a shit system based on not offending anyone rather than allowing people to judge how much you achieved at uni.

Pads is still in his own little world assuming everyone is just like him, so so many people would struggle with the poker skills required to be a decent winner let alone the non poker related stuff like mental game, commitment and other outside factors.

poker in 2014 is nothing like poker in 2011 or poker in 2007, couldn't imagine a worse  time to be trying to both get into and learn the game AND move up and build a bankroll whilst also providing for yourself etc.

There's all different kinds of people/mentalities/skill sets in poker though.

I really believe that around 80-90% of people could be professional poker players if they spent as much time trying as a full time university course.

Generally the only poker players that don't win are the ones that are 1) lazy or 2) stubborn. Thankfully most poker players are both.

best in the world in being utterly stubborn and clueless shocker lol.


ridic exaggeration because your basing things off what you can do. 8 or 9% maybe 80 or 90% and you been smoking some cray cray shiz.

[arbboy]

Agree with all the long term thinking is best stuff etc, but degrees that aren't vocational are utterly worthless, 2:2 2:1 or w/e it is, it's such a shit system based on not offending anyone rather than allowing people to judge how much you achieved at uni.

Pads is still in his own little world assuming everyone is just like him, so so many people would struggle with the poker skills required to be a decent winner let alone the non poker related stuff like mental game, commitment and other outside factors.

poker in 2014 is nothing like poker in 2011 or poker in 2007, couldn't imagine a worse  time to be trying to both get into and learn the game AND move up and build a bankroll whilst also providing for yourself etc.

There's all different kinds of people/mentalities/skill sets in poker though.

I really believe that around 80-90% of people could be professional poker players if they spent as much time trying as a full time university course.

Generally the only poker players that don't win are the ones that are 1) lazy or 2) stubborn. Thankfully most poker players are both.

best in the world in being utterly stubborn and clueless shocker lol.


ridic exaggeration because your basing things off what you can do. 8 or 9% maybe 80 or 90% and you been smoking some cray cray shiz.

I would go as far to say that at least 80-90% of people's personal circumstances/family pressure/aversion to risk/unsocial hours and lack of steady income would stop them doing it even if they were talented enough.  Of the remaining 10-20% i would say less than 1% could actually do what pads is suggesting.  Without blowing smoke up your arse pads you are super talented AND super driven and, without being disrespectful in any way, probably ahead of the EV curve as well.  It really isn't as easy as you think.

[nirvana]

pleno is right from a purely theoretical perspective - 10,000 hours and off we go to the races.

Most people can't/won't put the necessary effort into achieving excellence in what they are doing. For me good enough is good enough but for someone like pleno I can't imagine him ever taking the view that good enough is OK, he wants to be the best and has been in a long process of achieving it. Wish I'd ever had 50% of the motivation towards a specific goal.

If we're frank, we know already that Mr push is gonna struggle cause he's spent 3 years being average at doing a degree and plans to remain average. It's a bit like turning up on x factor and talking about how you want it so so so much and it means everything to you and your plan is...er, show up on x factor.

I guess we can change

[kinboshi]

I think if I was finishing my A levels now and just turning 18 and the age to go to uni - I wouldn't.  Actually, I probably couldn't.  The average expected debt for a uni graduate who was starting uni in 2012 was over £60K.  I just don't know how important a university degree is (unless it's for a specific career, such as medicine).  As Woodsey said, it can help you get your first job, but after that it becomes less and less important.

Very different situation to when I graduated over 15 years ago.