Road to being a pro

[SuuPRlim]

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise.

For me I think you have a very, very standard call in the SB for £7 more, you only have two more players to get through without it being raised and if it goes Raise, call, call then you're left closing the action and have a likely pretty straightforward call again (assuming it's raised to £30 or w/e) and if it goes call, raise, call then I think you can call safe int he knowledge that the BB will call as well pretty much always. If the UTG limper raises back then wave your £7 goodbye and get ready for the next hand.

Going 4way to the flop with 77 in a live poker game where the stacks have been made shallower is a very good situation for me when the price of entry is £7. I think jamming is incredibly spewy and needlessly high variance (if UTG calls then I imagine your doing fairly badly, although you could find yourself against 55 or 66 i spose) if the BB or the £8 straddle calls then you better PRAY for AKs or you're going to need to find a 7.

Shoving for £127 has basically turned a fairly low risk situation - set mining in a lose 4handed pot for £7, into a very very risky one. Remember this is full ring poker as well, not 6 handed where the chances of running into big hands goes up.

I think this is one of those situations myself and stu discussed, think about your "range" for this spot - do you need a "jamming from the SB after a triple straddle and UTG limp" range? I doubt it, I think you just need to look at the stacks of the 3 others in the pot, think about how they've been playing and make a vacuum decision from there. 

Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Saying that whenever you have AT-AK, KQ and 66+ you're going to jam £127 hereis going to be a fairly huge mistake - I wish i had a £1 coin for every time I justified a really spewy play in a cash game by saying "Oh well it's the bottom of my range what can I do"

Your approach to the game seems very good, but there's theory and then there is the practical application of the theory and I think that's something to think about.

[Rexas]

Really Dave? We've jammed 16bbs with 77, doesn't seem too bad. We actually did the maths on this hand (mainly because I'm sad and have nothing better to do with my time) and assuming a wide calling range of 15.5% of hands (which seems pretty wide, but given that this is a 1/1 (?) game with an £8 straddle then I'm assuming people haven't turned up to fold) then we net £17.40 by jamming here. We need the jam to get through 84% of the time for it to be profitable assuming we lose every time get called, but assuming a 15.5% calling range with 5 people left to act (bb, 1st straddle, 2nd straddle, 3rd straddle, limper) we're going to be called about 57% of the time and be almost exactly a flip against this range.

DISCLAIMER When I say we did the maths, I mean me and adrian. Credit where it's due

I'm not saying I think calling is bad, because for sure we can set mine here, but I certainly wouldn't think a jam is spewy.

[KingPush]

Good point about the implied odds. Still wouldn'

Kingpush, how would you play the hand, if it was just the 4 straddle on?

Completely different that would give me 30 BBS so would prob raise to 24 and fold to 3bet and not cbet many flops.

Nah just flat the extra £3 if only a £4 straddle and play for the times you hit a set in a 5 way pot. However it is perfectly understandable why you don't want to flat the £8 straddle. That said, with the £8 straddle it is still close. If you have a read that the straddlers are passive then you can profitably flat there too. As a rule of thumb, you can set mine for a much bigger % of your stack in many spots in live games, because so often it goes 5+ ways to a flop so your implied odds are better than you might think.

If you want to raise/fold with the £4 straddle then 77 is a really bad part of your range to do it with. Burning equity, no blockers (actually reverse blockers) etc. Prefer stuff like raggy Ax hands, since these at least have a blocker to your opponents' 3betting ranges.

Good point about the implied odds. Still wouldn't flat though. Don't really understand your point about having blockers to ax when raising. I don't think you can say that a6 is a better open than 77 here because it means they're less likely to have AQ+. If you think about what people are 3betting in these games I don't think it's going to be a mistake to raise/fold with 77 here. Having a polarised opening range makes no sense to me as I said before I have no limping range.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise.

For me I think you have a very, very standard call in the SB for £7 more, you only have two more players to get through without it being raised and if it goes Raise, call, call then you're left closing the action and have a likely pretty straightforward call again (assuming it's raised to £30 or w/e) and if it goes call, raise, call then I think you can call safe int he knowledge that the BB will call as well pretty much always. If the UTG limper raises back then wave your £7 goodbye and get ready for the next hand.

Going 4way to the flop with 77 in a live poker game where the stacks have been made shallower is a very good situation for me when the price of entry is £7. I think jamming is incredibly spewy and needlessly high variance (if UTG calls then I imagine your doing fairly badly, although you could find yourself against 55 or 66 i spose) if the BB or the £8 straddle calls then you better PRAY for AKs or you're going to need to find a 7.

Shoving for £127 has basically turned a fairly low risk situation - set mining in a lose 4handed pot for £7, into a very very risky one. Remember this is full ring poker as well, not 6 handed where the chances of running into big hands goes up.

I think this is one of those situations myself and stu discussed, think about your "range" for this spot - do you need a "jamming from the SB after a triple straddle and UTG limp" range? I doubt it, I think you just need to look at the stacks of the 3 others in the pot, think about how they've been playing and make a vacuum decision from there.  

Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Saying that whenever you have AT-AK, KQ and 66+ you're going to jam £127 hereis going to be a fairly huge mistake - I wish i had a £1 coin for every time I justified a really spewy play in a cash game by saying "Oh well it's the bottom of my range what can I do"

Your approach to the game seems very good, but there's theory and then there is the practical application of the theory and I think that's something to think about.

Putting a quarter of your stack in with 77 then folding flop seems really bad to me. As you said though the play is really high variance and it might just be better to flat here and hope for a seven even though it seems really passive in theory it probably isn't going to get punished enough in these games to matter. This isn't to say I disagree with my play though. I don't think shoving 77 with less than 20bb will ever be a huge mistake when there's that much in the middle.

[KingPush]

Really Dave? We've jammed 16bbs with 77, doesn't seem too bad. We actually did the maths on this hand (mainly because I'm sad and have nothing better to do with my time) and assuming a wide calling range of 15.5% of hands (which seems pretty wide, but given that this is a 1/1 (?) game with an £8 straddle then I'm assuming people haven't turned up to fold) then we net £17.40 by jamming here. We need the jam to get through 84% of the time for it to be profitable assuming we lose every time get called, but assuming a 15.5% calling range with 5 people left to act (bb, 1st straddle, 2nd straddle, 3rd straddle, limper) we're going to be called about 57% of the time and be almost exactly a flip against this range.

DISCLAIMER When I say we did the maths, I mean me and adrian. Credit where it's due

I'm not saying I think calling is bad, because for sure we can set mine here, but I certainly wouldn't think a jam is spewy.

Cheers lads. Made me feel much better about it! Wouldn't even say calling ranges were that wide here maybe more like 8-10% considering utg tank calls with akcc

[Rexas]

Fwiw I'm definitely not raising this hand if the straddle is only to 4, seems like the nut spot to set mine. Completely echo honeybadgers thoughts on that.

[SuuPRlim]

Really Dave? We've jammed 16bbs with 77, doesn't seem too bad. We actually did the maths on this hand (mainly because I'm sad and have nothing better to do with my time) and assuming a wide calling range of 15.5% of hands (which seems pretty wide, but given that this is a 1/1 (?) game with an £8 straddle then I'm assuming people haven't turned up to fold) then we net £17.40 by jamming here. We need the jam to get through 84% of the time for it to be profitable assuming we lose every time get called, but assuming a 15.5% calling range with 5 people left to act (bb, 1st straddle, 2nd straddle, 3rd straddle, limper) we're going to be called about 57% of the time and be almost exactly a flip against this range.

DISCLAIMER When I say we did the maths, I mean me and adrian. Credit where it's due

I'm not saying I think calling is bad, because for sure we can set mine here, but I certainly wouldn't think a jam is spewy.

Hmmm, i'd be willing to lay pretty big odds you wont be exactly a flip against the range that calls you. You'll do better vs the limper's calling range as he'sclosing the action but if you get in vs the BB,straddle or straddle then you are in a lot of trouble.

Also, the fact it's 16bb's is irrelevant, it's £127 to win £x and you either have the equity or you don't.

And if you have to gamble £127 to win £17.40 then you are DEFO not playing in the right live games!

[Rexas]

If you're wearing a hoodie they're probably calling that wide. If you're wearing a cardigan they're probably only calling QQ+

[SuuPRlim]

Good point about the implied odds. Still wouldn't flat though. Don't really understand your point about having blockers to ax when raising. I don't think you can say that a6 is a better open than 77 here because it means they're less likely to have AQ+. If you think about what people are 3betting in these games I don't think it's going to be a mistake to raise/fold with 77 here. Having a polarised opening range makes no sense to me as I said before I have no limping range.

It's defo not inconceivable that A6s is a better here than 77. A6s make a good bluffing hand because you have much better equity vs KK, QQ, JJ etc than 77 and you have blockers to the hands that you really dont wanna run into, AK, AQ, AA. As stu said, 77 even has reverse blockers, as you block the best hands for you opponents to have against you, and you yourself could be blocked.

I just dont see a single reason not to have a limping range for £7 here out of £127stack? What about   ,   ,   ,     and so on? You're just going to fold all these hands?

[SuuPRlim]

If you're wearing a hoodie they're probably calling that wide. If you're wearing a cardigan they're probably only calling QQ+

Haha so true

Get your cardy's boys.

[pleno1]

have contemplated long and hard if i should get involved here...

[Rexas]

there are quite a few things I want to say, but im resolving to be less of a killjoy/moany twat, so I won't :p I will say that not having AT LEAST an overlimping range live is pretty terrible.

[Woodsey]

there are quite a few things I want to say, but im resolving to be less of a killjoy/moany twat, so I won't :p I will say that not having AT LEAST an overlimping range live is pretty terrible.

Do tell us more about these old fish, it's been a while since we've had that debate   

[sonour]

have contemplated long and hard if i should get involved here...

I didn't have to think very long to decide I would like you to get involved please.

[tonytats]

I like what Dave said about flat ting with the 77 here
Think shoving £127 in with it is very wild /spewy play and with a ltd bankroll you will prolly be looking for a job soon if you carry on doing this in a full ring game
But I've probably done worse as most have

[baldock92]

I don't mean to be the miserable fart but i'd focus on your degree until it's finished, it's one of them things you'll never be able to change if you f*** it up. Play a bit on the side like i did, you can still learn a lot from smaller/ fewer sessions and then after you've finished commit your time to it, if you still want to.

Good luck with university and poker!