The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

I find the whole thing interesting in that I'm borderline leave on the simple basis that I feel so totally manipulated by the whole process from when a referendum was first mooted.

I love the multiculturalism that exists here and believe that we're massive beneficiaries of the various migrant waves to the UK and all the richer for it on so many levels. Also, feel 'pride' for want of a better word that you'd be hard pushed to find a more multicultural country with such a low level of general xenophobia.

Also think it's entirely legitimate that people express genuine concern over the levels of migration from EU states to here - it doesn't make me xenophobic I hope - having said all that I got Camel's point without thinking DIAGF

[david3103]

Tony Benn's political outlook may not have been to everyone's taste, but however you view him I think most would agree that he was a true believer in democracy.
He formulated five questions to be asked of all who exercise power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

What answers do we get from Junckers?
From an army of Brussels/Strasbourg political animals?
As I see it, the power within the EU is held illegitimately and is often exercised against this country's needs. How do we get rid of them? Either by engineering a root &I branch reform of the EU or by leaving.
Which of these is feasible?

[nirvana]

I do like these tests from Benn and wish the debate had more of a philosophical hue to it. Probably why I like the leave case because although they have their fair share of rando morons, I like the purer philosophical arguments around democracy and sovereignty.

At the same time I quite like the one philosophical element that I can latch on to for remaining - I don't find it easy to articulate but the notions around binding peoples together for some kind of common good and potentially avoiding catastrophes like the Balkan conflict

Just seems dominated by the economics argument where big biz and the establishment frighten the working and middle classes into believing they will lose their house and their job...again.

All feels a bit too shallow and would really like to see a whole series of properly moderated debates directly between the protagonists to help understand things a bit more deeply and make a more reasoned decision.

[MintTrav]

Tony Benn's political outlook may not have been to everyone's taste, but however you view him I think most would agree that he was a true believer in democracy.
He formulated five questions to be asked of all who exercise power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

What answers do we get from Junckers?
From an army of Brussels/Strasbourg political animals?
As I see it, the power within the EU is held illegitimately and is often exercised against this country's needs. How do we get rid of them? Either by engineering a root &I branch reform of the EU or by leaving.
Which of these is feasible?

Why do you think it is held illegitimately?

[david3103]

Tony Benn's political outlook may not have been to everyone's taste, but however you view him I think most would agree that he was a true believer in democracy.
He formulated five questions to be asked of all who exercise power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

What answers do we get from Junckers?
From an army of Brussels/Strasbourg political animals?
As I see it, the power within the EU is held illegitimately and is often exercised against this country's needs. How do we get rid of them? Either by engineering a root &I branch reform of the EU or by leaving.
Which of these is feasible?

Why do you think it is held illegitimately?

Because, as I see it, most of the power within the EU is held by people who weren't elected to hold it.
More to the point,
How would Junckers answer Benn's questions?
How would any of the Commissioners answer?
How much of the legislation/directives that come from Brussels/Strasbourg is actually derived from the efforts of people that were elected?

[MintTrav]

Tony Benn's political outlook may not have been to everyone's taste, but however you view him I think most would agree that he was a true believer in democracy.
He formulated five questions to be asked of all who exercise power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

What answers do we get from Junckers?
From an army of Brussels/Strasbourg political animals?
As I see it, the power within the EU is held illegitimately and is often exercised against this country's needs. How do we get rid of them? Either by engineering a root &I branch reform of the EU or by leaving.
Which of these is feasible?

Why do you think it is held illegitimately?

Because, as I see it, most of the power within the EU is held by people who weren't elected to hold it.
More to the point,
How would Junckers answer Benn's questions?
How would any of the Commissioners answer?
How much of the legislation/directives that come from Brussels/Strasbourg is actually derived from the efforts of people that were elected?

I don't get the fixation over some people with power in EU institutions not having been elected. It makes no difference.
Many people with power in the UK weren't elected.

[Woodsey]

Tony Benn's political outlook may not have been to everyone's taste, but however you view him I think most would agree that he was a true believer in democracy.
He formulated five questions to be asked of all who exercise power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

What answers do we get from Junckers?
From an army of Brussels/Strasbourg political animals?
As I see it, the power within the EU is held illegitimately and is often exercised against this country's needs. How do we get rid of them? Either by engineering a root &I branch reform of the EU or by leaving.
Which of these is feasible?

Why do you think it is held illegitimately?

Because, as I see it, most of the power within the EU is held by people who weren't elected to hold it.
More to the point,
How would Junckers answer Benn's questions?
How would any of the Commissioners answer?
How much of the legislation/directives that come from Brussels/Strasbourg is actually derived from the efforts of people that were elected?

The illuminati innit....

[david3103]

Tony Benn's political outlook may not have been to everyone's taste, but however you view him I think most would agree that he was a true believer in democracy.
He formulated five questions to be asked of all who exercise power:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

What answers do we get from Junckers?
From an army of Brussels/Strasbourg political animals?
As I see it, the power within the EU is held illegitimately and is often exercised against this country's needs. How do we get rid of them? Either by engineering a root &I branch reform of the EU or by leaving.
Which of these is feasible?

Why do you think it is held illegitimately?

Because, as I see it, most of the power within the EU is held by people who weren't elected to hold it.
More to the point,
How would Junckers answer Benn's questions?
How would any of the Commissioners answer?
How much of the legislation/directives that come from Brussels/Strasbourg is actually derived from the efforts of people that were elected?

I don't get the fixation over some people with power in EU institutions not having been elected. It makes no difference.
Many people with power in the UK weren't elected.

Some? Who did we elect?
Please don't say MEPs because that is just a joke of a talking shop and a gravy train.
The various Prime Ministers and Presidents? We elected one of those.

Yes, there are people with power in the UK that weren't elected. The House of Lords is full of them, and I would support a move toward an elected body to replace them.
The various people in appointed positions of power were, at least, appointed by a government that we elected.


You haven't addressed the main thrust of my question btw, just attempted to sidestep it.

[RickBFA]

We are drip fed fear tactics from the remain side in the EU debate almost daily.

Osbourne is the latest.

The 18% drop in house price line really is scraping the fear barrel.

It would be good to have a decent debate without this bullshit.

A real shame that the different out groups couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

[TightEnd]

This is extraordinary. Leave has a 37% lead with those educated to 17. Remain a 33% lead with those educated to 20+.

[TightEnd]

they are thinking it might be all over..

[doubleup]

We are drip fed fear tactics from the remain side in the EU debate almost daily.

Osbourne is the latest.

The 18% drop in house price line really is scraping the fear barrel.

It would be good to have a decent debate without this bullshit.

A real shame that the different out groups couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

And the out campaign tell blatant lies

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/penny-mordaunt-andrew-marr-uk-veto-tory-minister-accused-of-flat-out-lying-over-turkey-joining-the-a7041956.html

She should be sacked.

[MintTrav]

We are drip fed fear tactics from the remain side in the EU debate almost daily.

Osbourne is the latest.

The 18% drop in house price line really is scraping the fear barrel.

It would be good to have a decent debate without this bullshit.

A real shame that the different out groups couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

And the out campaign tell blatant lies

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/penny-mordaunt-andrew-marr-uk-veto-tory-minister-accused-of-flat-out-lying-over-turkey-joining-the-a7041956.html

She should be sacked.

Cameron himself has now slapped her down, on telly, within a couple of hours, with no caveats. His own Minister. This is the second time she has majorly crossed swords with him in a few weeks, on top of the various weird things she has done in the past. I wouldn't fancy her chances of surviving the next reshuffle.

[RickBFA]

We are drip fed fear tactics from the remain side in the EU debate almost daily.

Osbourne is the latest.

The 18% drop in house price line really is scraping the fear barrel.

It would be good to have a decent debate without this bullshit.

A real shame that the different out groups couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

And the out campaign tell blatant lies

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/penny-mordaunt-andrew-marr-uk-veto-tory-minister-accused-of-flat-out-lying-over-turkey-joining-the-a7041956.html

She should be sacked.

I think both sides have run very poor, constantly negative campaigns. Remain are well organised but the playing on the fear factor constantly instead of the benefits are grating.

The out campaign may have lied but then the line that house prices will drop 18% because of Brexit is hardly based on any "fact". Its total nonsense and Osborne knows it. Disingenuous at best.

It would be good to see the positive arguments for staying and going. Instead we see constant negative tactics.

[TightEnd]

Click to see full-size image.

Treasury analysis shows "shock" and "severe shock" impact on jobs under Brexit: unemployment up 520,000 to 820,000