Preflop and flop look pretty standard. The river bet was a bit too big I think though, 400ish looks fine 'cos I don't think you're ever gunna get bluff raised here. Folding the flop is definitely an option against some players but if he is competant and has been 3betting and cbetting in 3bet pots a decent amount then peeling is fine here imo

I think you can fold the river against this guy though. If he's decent then he's never spazjamming an ace here, he just has to have it.

agreed. sigh.

[ ] cooler

[X] avoidable

River bet is awful mate.

When he leads flop what do you put him on? You're hardly beating anything. The odd Ax hand maybe. He has plenty of kings in his range as well as A10.

You're pretty much bluffing especially as you say he's competent. He isn't paying you off with an A here.

Bet fold may be ok in this spot but a much smaller bet. 400 would be ample. Personally though I prefer check / call.

By the way you'd be better off not posting the result of the hand. It's easy to give an answer when you already know the outcome.

Yes, but in this case the outcome is obvious - I got beat, so whether he had KK or AAetc doesnt really matter imo.
Can't check call, am on the button once he checks I have to bet, and I usually wouldnt bet so big, like you said 300 or 400, but because of the history and the reasons I mentioned, I decided he was waiting with Ax to snap me off so went for more value. Agree should've folded the flop.

villain was competant (a rare find in this field) and was aggresive, 3betting quite frequently and knew me also to be aggresive. I had shown down one big bluff where I 3bet AQ blue, bet a 963flop, was called. tank checked a J turn to see a river where I could jam a lot of cards if i didnt bink. river was a K, i put him in for 1.4x pot and he tank folded a 6 he said. he asked to see and was alright so i showed him.

PokerStars Game #48888669815: Tournament #306252571, $20+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level II (15/30) - 2010/08/30 17:56:44 WET [2010/08/30 12:56:44 ET]
Table '306252571 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: sgtbilko77 (1315 in chips)
Seat 2: 20alex430 (1685 in chips)
20alex430: posts small blind 15
sgtbilko77: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 20alex430 [ ]
20alex430: raises 45 to 75
sgtbilko77: raises 105 to 180
20alex430: calls 105
*** FLOP *** [  
sgtbilko77: bets 229
20alex430: calls 229
*** TURN *** [   ] []
sgtbilko77: checks
20alex430: checks
*** RIVER *** [   ] [ ]
sgtbilko77: checks
20alex430: bets 575
sgtbilko77: raises 331 to 906 and is all-in
20alex430: calls 331
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sgtbilko77: shows [ ] (four of a kind, Kings)
20alex430: shows [ ] (a full house, Tens full of Kings)
sgtbilko77 collected 2630 from pot


Given history I thought peeling a flop with QT was fine. He bet the flop quickly, NOT like he had 99, or 88 for example, which he wouldnt snap bet this flop. but like he had hit it. I did still think I probably had between 4 and 9 outs. Probably shouldve folded the flop anyway.

He snap checked the turn, kind of like he had Ax and was waiting for me to spas out, but did have a feeling he might have AK, AA etc. Check river fairly quickly, though not as fast as the turn. Thought he was just waiting to snap me off with Ax or maybe QQ so I bet big, instead of putting him in again, thought he might fold if i did exactly the same thing as id done previously.

Fold the flop right? As played, how do you like my river line? and can i fold once he sets me in ever? as in, he obviously has be beat once he snap shoves the river, but getting like 8:1 or something silly...

Agree with james that its a bet/fold on the river but I'm not betting very big, $25 or so. I don't expect to really get bluffed here at all. Really really gross if he does shove but I think you gotta call just 'cos a small bet might induce a scared 2 pair to surmise that with that betsize you never have a straight so he can jam worse for value

so bet/fold or bet/call the river dan?!

this is a gross spot yeh, I think he shows up with air here a lot though. Your line probably looks like JJ to him, so he thinks maybe only a large bet will get you to fold that, and he has 89 or a small pair/airball float. The other option, he is putting you on exactly JQ and so thinks you'll pay off his TT or 77.

I think the first is more likely though, as your line has to appear stronger than it does for him to put such a large bet in with a boat and be confident that you'll pay him off. interesting post though.

my opinion on anything like this, showing cards, talking during hands, hollywoods etc is that anything you do like this should be engineered to a specific objective (i.e you know that a guy thinks people talking makes them look weak because either he said something like that in a previous session or you;'ve seen him fall for it before etc etc) so you start talking a bit with the intention of getting him tohero you, yeah good stuff fair enough

but often in cash games you come across players you dont know, therefore have no idea how the information you are giving will influence them, or if they are even paying attention, therfore its impossible to know how to accuratley deduce how this will affect there game.

for example you show a bluff so someone will call lighter next time, they think "well he bluffed last time he wont be bluffing again" or "last time when he was bluffing he was way more nervous this time he looks more relaxed so hemust have a hand" etc etc

So they have info they can choose to acknowledge or not and you've provided info everyione else will have the benefit of, with no idea of its actual benefit.

Hence why I just never do anything without VERY VERY VERY specific reason, and I rarely have one. having said this I often show cards either for rub down value or just because someone I like asks me and I dont wanna be a dick + they'll return the favour when Im rele curious lol SUCH A FISH

good post, ty i agree on the levels point, you can never be sure how the information will effect each player and like you said whether it might translate into them doing the opposite of what you might expect. so i suppose it just adds another level to take into account, and just like mr bedi, i already level myself into making horrible decisions anyway. SO best course of action - very rarely show? I am guilty far too often of classic rubdown show, although it feels great, I usually regret it later, when Im trying to get the same guy to fold his middle pair and he just wont. try to more disicplined with the rubdown shows one time?

On a serious note, people dont fold in live cash games anyway, i like to show occasional random bullshit so i can make my value bets redic big and get paid off by people who refuse to fold middle pair to a 'bluffer'.

Its just important to know your own image, which is obv easier to do at DTD in a small player pool, but online I think its def a mistake to show bluffs.

thanks for that serous note mitch, although *seriously* how are you going to ever read that pokerface?

im talking live yes, and i agree its important to know your own image. but surely showing the occasional random bullshit makes those big bluffs harder to pull off? or do you rarely pull off big moves these days cos you`re a "bluffer"? once you have that image, do you just focus on getting paid massive all the time? cos like you said ppl dont fold in live cash.

No, I still try the big bluffs against people who are never folding because they have flopped the nuts, get called, tilt up, say to myself ''FFS im never gonna try and bluff one of these morons again"

Hit my runner runner. De tilt.

Try it again. Order more food.  Cycle continues...

FYP

  very good

only show cards when you are playing much less skilled players, you will know when you are good enough to use showing cards well enough for it to be +EV.

i generally do play much less skilled players, if i may say so myself (DTD, Gala, Alea .50/1 etc - so NOT a brag in the slightest)

On a serious note, people dont fold in live cash games anyway, i like to show occasional random bullshit so i can make my value bets redic big and get paid off by people who refuse to fold middle pair to a 'bluffer'.

Its just important to know your own image, which is obv easier to do at DTD in a small player pool, but online I think its def a mistake to show bluffs.

thanks for that serous note mitch, although *seriously* how are you going to ever read that pokerface?

im talking live yes, and i agree its important to know your own image. but surely showing the occasional random bullshit makes those big bluffs harder to pull off? or do you rarely pull off big moves these days cos you`re a "bluffer"? once you have that image, do you just focus on getting paid massive all the time? cos like you said ppl dont fold in live cash.

do you really think he would flat with middle/2nd pair on the river with someone still to act behind?

no, i thought a set, or two pair, like it says in OP

I think the OP will soon come to realise that the standard of $1/$2 NL in Vegas is somewhere just below the standard of 1c/2c online.

haha definitely!

You seem to be berating everyone's play and then doing exactly the same yourself.

"BB retardedly makes it $6". "Ofc everyone calls"........ and so do you......

"playing with a bunch of mongs" "two callers"........... I call.......

"I figure I can have a ton of 4's in my range"...... erm, well no you can have 1 of 4 as can every other limp/caller in this pot.

"EP tank calls 44" you say this like you think he nearly passed. No f**king chance. He was deciding whether to raise for value but thought better of it.

I was just saying that with 7 people limping for $2, the BBs raise sizing is retarded, because obviously everyone is going to call that.
And I was playing with a bunch of mongs, the SB bet $6 in a pot of 42 or something. And once two people call, I can´t really pass, even with just 4 outs.
Obviously the guy with 44 was just posturing and isnt ever going to fold that, but he certainly was never thinking of raising. Why would he flat the $20 initially then when I make it 65 would he suddenly think of putting in a value raise? No chance. And btw, this guy was not capable of thinking "I should probably raise, but i might get the guy in the CO to make a move if i flat here, or get him to make a bad overcall".

It was his initial flat that confused me into thinking that he didn´t have a 4. And I knew the initial bettor didnt have one cos he looked insanely weak. Whereas I can have 45,46,47, 43 easily.

Sounds like you're gunna be banging your head against a brick wall trying to get these guys to fold a hand.

Just seems pretty fps to me when the flop callers can have just as many 4x hands as you can

sure, but given the river action, i had a vstrong read sb was weak, and just thought the caller would raise with a 4. No? (p.s. fps is?)

You know that this can never ever be a fold. Just try and be less results oriented

well said mate! this is a problem for sure. but in this case surely he always has aces here!

UTG or UTG+1, who hasnt been very active at all, opens to $12. MP is a fairly aggro fishy french guy, 3bets to $30 (have seen him 3bet once in 2orbits, idk what with). Ultra ultra fish flats behind (could have any 2 - once bet $5 into a 150 pot OTR with 9high). I find KK in the CO. I have a stack of 180. I am super worried about EP, and also french guy. I make it 70, planning to fold if EP moves in, and figure can get 3better to commit more chips with all his 3betting range (which could be quite wide).

EP folds, 3bettor now tank raises to 180. fish passes. its 110 to call and there is 12+180+30+70+3 in the pot already = 295. I know he pretty much has aces all the time here, or maybe other two kings. getting about 2.5 to 1 need to have 27% vs his range, which I suppose I don´t have...can you find a fold as played? how do you like my 4bet size / line?