OMAHA! Cash Games!

[SuuPRlim]

  I've read this paragraph, along with the rest of your reply quite a few times now, and whilst I am struggling to fully grasp it I expect/hope the level of thinking you're alluding to is not required at my stakes (50PLO) but by the time I'm ready to move up I will be much more au-fait with it.  For example, I have now started to wonder if I have a un-balanced calling range, but then I also wonder if anyone at my stakes would notice.  (And now I'm getting paranoid that everyone knows this about me and dances gleefully  armed with that knowledge when I sit down..... !)

But seriously, I do find it's interesting though that your conclusion, "take KKJ8 back into our calling range as ... it has too much equity to be a bluff" is the same conclusion someone like me, a player at a lower monetary and thinking level, would come to, but you've come to it from a more involved thought process.   And I do wonder, and am genuinely interested in, to what extent in your games you think your level of thinking is necessary to be a winning player.

Ok, these points - good questions imo, obviously there is no way to definitively answer these two questions as we play different games against different players so it's all sort of hypothetical, but I'll give you my personal opinion.

At 50plo, what you're going to find is generally tighter and less "advanced" (kinda cringey expression) play, but what I mean is most of the time people will have pretty much the hands they are repping, what this means is a really exploitative "vacuum- based" strategy will always be immediately more profitable for you (basically just doing whatever is best against the hand you think he has in this specific hand) worrying about how balanced your strategy is shouldnt REALLY be at the forefront of your mind (cos we're trying to make money and there is an immediately more profitable option available) so I guess in simple terms, in answer to your first question how relevant is the theory behind important at 25c/50c - not all that much.

However being range aware and always thinking about your range vs there range, what your hand looks like to your opponent and more importantly thinking about ALL the hands you'll find yourself with in a certain spot and how you would play all of them together - then you're starting to build yourself an overall strategy and even if you constantly go against these thoughts at 25c/50c for more exploitative vacuum plays the fact you're thinking about them will vastly improve your development - and the truth is as well at ALL levels of poker you're going to find good players who even if they aren't thinking about theory in a "galfond-style" way they just have a natural grasp of the basics (you get this with the slightly better recreational plays mostly I find)

Once you've built yourself ranges you'll be very surprised how often "mandatory" plays provide themselves which you think won;'t work but because you've built your ranges well they work a surprising amount of the time - e.g. when i get to a river with T8high or something but I KNOW i have to bluff because of what my range is, I say out loud "fuck I have t bluff here but I think he's calling nearly every time" and those plays have a surprisingly high success rate...I remember railing Rob once (Patonius2000 ^^) a few years back and I said casually mid-hand "can you bluff here" and he said "I can do whatever the fuck I want here" I didn't get it at first lol but basically he's so comfortable with his range in X spot that he has all the options open to him.

Does that make sense?

And final question, how important is it in the games I play? Well, personally I think it's very important - not maybe so important because I worry X reg knows my c/r range on PYZ is too weak or anything liek that but just because I've been playing mid/mid-high stakes online for a while and I see how competitive the games get, I play on sites with much much smaller player pools so have got 30-35,000 hand samples on some regs (they'll likely have on me too) so if I want to stay on top of my game I need to be thinking all the time how to remain alongside or ahead of the best players i'm playing with. The days of logging online and playing some cards expecting to make decent money are gone imo, it'still very much possible to make money from poker but you gotta earn it nowadays.

Game Theory is at the end of the day at the foundation of every hand we play, so if your serious about poker so you should prolly be serious about Game Theory.

[BangBang]

Great post. Played 1-2 Omaha yesterday and noticed one of players at the table, was playing a pretty YOYO type game, he went from being up around £900 to being on £300 then up to £1200 then 0, some of the plays that he made seemed pretty unnecessary and overly aggressive (Like betting £225 on the river when all the draws get there in a 3 way pot OOP and then being inclined to call his opponents last £85 with a weak/non existent holding)  

The table was full of recreational players like myself who pretty much had it each time they raised, wouldn't fold to the potential nuts no matter what the other opponent was repping would call most raises pre flop and would hardly 3bet pre even with AA type premium holdings, average buy in was £300 and most players had around 2 buy ins each, with only a couple of players that were in profit  

What would you say is the optimum strategy to play on a table like this.  Also how important is it to play at the stakes that you're used to? As it felt like the YOYO'y player needed to play higher to produce a win in the style that he was playing...

[WotRTheChances]

This is a sick good thread Lil' D. Have recently started picking up PLO again (played some HU previously). Starting to play some 6-max stuff and enjoying it. Very interesting reading all you're thought processes. In some ways I feel like im getting a grasp and generally agreeing and understand a lot of the stuff you say.... however theres a bunch of stuff i'm going to have to read at not-4:30am to sink in. The games i'm playing in the vast majority play a very fit-or-fold style... a decent amount of people over-valuing weak/potentially dominated draws and made hands. There's a few regs who seem decent too, but feel like i'm picking up a lot more here than just from my observations while grinding.

The graphs and figures/stats you've gone into are quality btw, that software looks like the nuts.

Will look to contribute soon. Pleasure reading

[Oxford_HRV]

hi! sorry havent read any replies itt but this is how I'd play these hands in the first post..
for hand 1, you have to bet out OTF. Because in these spots you want to effectively win asap or be HU on the turn for evaluation of vile cards. its a 5way flop and some one will get 'gambly' and call your bet drawing, If you had the intention of c/r if there's multiple callers. I think you could see people get stubborn often, call, and take away an inflated pot on bad turns for your hand. it's a funky line you've took but I'm not liking it

hand 2 is sweet! if you got him on monsters EP this flop sucks for him, never playing 88XX 44XX and unlikely he has 10s, his flat seems like AAXX or JJQXds ect which calls wen it semi blocking a wrap draw on rainbow boards. I'd take the exact same line down to the dollar... take the trigger off safety OTR, fire and hope he lays down or look like a spaz vs TT

hand 3 looks like personal levelling war style to me, think they prob rivered you, called off with 99TJ8ish ect OTF picked up equity OTT and rivered you dirty style, prob sigh call it off and knew its a fold in the back of my mind.
I'm going to make it 20 OTF about 82% pot OTT i got a 82% button on stars and im loving it at the moment! if it plays the same and he calls the min raise then calls turn I end up spaz sigh call off the rivers unless the bet size seems very VB'y but you'd know best in these spots.

[SuuPRlim]

Great post. Played 1-2 Omaha yesterday and noticed one of players at the table, was playing a pretty YOYO type game, he went from being up around £900 to being on £300 then up to £1200 then 0, some of the plays that he made seemed pretty unnecessary and overly aggressive (Like betting £225 on the river when all the draws get there in a 3 way pot OOP and then being inclined to call his opponents last £85 with a weak/non existent holding)   

The table was full of recreational players like myself who pretty much had it each time they raised, wouldn't fold to the potential nuts no matter what the other opponent was repping would call most raises pre flop and would hardly 3bet pre even with AA type premium holdings, average buy in was £300 and most players had around 2 buy ins each, with only a couple of players that were in profit 

What would you say is the optimum strategy to play on a table like this.  Also how important is it to play at the stakes that you're used to? As it felt like the YOYO'y player needed to play higher to produce a win in the style that he was playing...

First question, how I would play on that type of table...

Well I think I have a good idea of what you mean, there is a game in a local casino of mine I play from time to time and it plays kinda like you've described, the first thing I do is I 3-bet a LOT, mostly because, sat deep like you say no-one every really 4bets, even with hands that are a slam-dunk 4bet like decent combo's of ACES, this just means you get to play bigger pots, in  position - important to remember if you play like that though not to get too stubborn post-flop as people are gonna play quite fit/fold for the most part.

Against players who are too fancy then just keep it simple.

How important is it to play at stakes you're used to? Well, I mean it really depends on your personality and your circumstances, I played high stakes in America last year and I lost an absolute fortune at 50/100+ but at stakes below that I won quite a bit (lot of variance in that ofc) but it certainly would be foolish of me to not think well, maybe I just play worse higher stakes because it's not a level im 100% confident with yet? Id be surprised if there wasn't some truth to that.

Basically what I always say is that anything that distracts you away from the primary objective (playing as well as possible) is going to be bad for you, if you're worried about the money, if you're not comfortable gambling this high, or even if you have plenty of money but only have 2 buyins with you and cant get more cash then that will defo distract from playing well and ultimately will cost you money.

[SuuPRlim]

Tom - add me on skype if you wanna share some hands ever, i'm "on it" at the moment as far as working on this sort of stuff is going

[WotRTheChances]

Tom - add me on skype if you wanna share some hands ever, i'm "on it" at the moment as far as working on this sort of stuff is going

PM your SN, there are millions of you... even several in Leeds

[SuuPRlim]

same as my blonde name x

[Sack it off]

Epic thread,

Just played my first 60k hands of 50PLO, getting use to things and just developing a better understanding of player ranges atm.

I keep paying people off when they take under-repped lines with sets etc and they house up on the river and show aggression. Always throws me off

Anyway will try get involved as much as poss

[gouty]

Great post. Played 1-2 Omaha yesterday and noticed one of players at the table, was playing a pretty YOYO type game, he went from being up around £900 to being on £300 then up to £1200 then 0, some of the plays that he made seemed pretty unnecessary and overly aggressive (Like betting £225 on the river when all the draws get there in a 3 way pot OOP and then being inclined to call his opponents last £85 with a weak/non existent holding)   

The table was full of recreational players like myself who pretty much had it each time they raised, wouldn't fold to the potential nuts no matter what the other opponent was repping would call most raises pre flop and would hardly 3bet pre even with AA type premium holdings, average buy in was £300 and most players had around 2 buy ins each, with only a couple of players that were in profit 

What would you say is the optimum strategy to play on a table like this.  Also how important is it to play at the stakes that you're used to? As it felt like the YOYO'y player needed to play higher to produce a win in the style that he was playing...

First question, how I would play on that type of table...

Well I think I have a good idea of what you mean, there is a game in a local casino of mine I play from time to time and it plays kinda like you've described, the first thing I do is I 3-bet a LOT, mostly because, sat deep like you say no-one every really 4bets, even with hands that are a slam-dunk 4bet like decent combo's of ACES, this just means you get to play bigger pots, in  position - important to remember if you play like that though not to get too stubborn post-flop as people are gonna play quite fit/fold for the most part.

Against players who are too fancy then just keep it simple.

How important is it to play at stakes you're used to? Well, I mean it really depends on your personality and your circumstances, I played high stakes in America last year and I lost an absolute fortune at 50/100+ but at stakes below that I won quite a bit (lot of variance in that ofc) but it certainly would be foolish of me to not think well, maybe I just play worse higher stakes because it's not a level im 100% confident with yet? Id be surprised if there wasn't some truth to that.

Basically what I always say is that anything that distracts you away from the primary objective (playing as well as possible) is going to be bad for you, if you're worried about the money, if you're not comfortable gambling this high, or even if you have plenty of money but only have 2 buyins with you and cant get more cash then that will defo distract from playing well and ultimately will cost you money.

Would you agree that the strategy to beat nearly every UK casino 1/2 PLO game has absolutely no similarity to the strategy  used to beat 6 max 100 PLO on stars?

I think the latter is fkn tricky as hell yet so many live games are made easier by 150+bb stacks making mistakes.

Lil Dave. Can we get a hand from a 1/2 live game to mull over? 

Cheers

[SuuPRlim]

Gouty,

Yes I think you are absolutely correct, the differences are as you say - 8 or 9 handed play as opposed to 6handed play, deeper stacks and (without causing any offence) a higher % of weaker play - if you took a "stnd" 1/2$ game online you'd prolly find 3 or 4 competant opponents (maybe not galfonds and iveys, but more than capable) and that is 50-66% of the table, in a live game you'll prolly find yourself with 60-80% of the table being slightly weaker than an average online opponent.

As these points create a much different dynamic to online, mostly due tp the fact that you have way more multi-way pots, and the stacks are deeper so you get all-in less, I wrote an article about it which some people have said is good http://www.pokerplayer.co.uk/poker-strategy/omaha/12391/full_ring_plo.html

The stacks being deeper is a crucial point, its where the weaker players make the mistakes that are costly, I see all the time online when a perceived whale pops along at high stakes and every reg onthe site jumps around to get in the game and he plays 60-80big blind stack and plays absolutely fine, the mistakes are usually getting a bit overly stubborn with draws and weak-ish made hands plus stacking off a bit to light post flop as a result of calling too many hands pre-flop.

These are mistakes, that will cost you money, but with under 100bb stacks in PLO you can make a lot worse mistakes than getting it in a bit too light push the stacks up to 200 big blinds and each mistake starts to compound, the call preflop which was marginal at best now puts you in a flop spot where you cost yourself Xblinds, followed by a turn spot that costs Y more and a river guessing game for 125big blinds... This is why you really do have to be extremely considerate with hand selection the deeper you get speshly in situations where you are OOP or more than 1 preflop bet has gone in.

I can't think of any casino hands I've played recently - I've not played live poker anywhere since my last LV trip, but plan to start again in Leeds this week so I'll try make something happen

Anyone else have a fun hand from a casino game pls feel free to post it

[BangBang]

Playing £1-2 Omaha at the Vic, UTG Is German Rick

Villain loose passive stack £1300 – Has been calling light all night

UTG – Tight Aggressive, always raises 7 UTG has done for 6 rounds

Hero – Stack £1900 ( )

Hero – SB

UTG – Raises to 7
UTG +1 Calls
MP – Calls
CO – Calls
BTN – Makes £35
SB – Raises £100

Folds round

BTN – Calls

Flop 

SB – 170
BTN – Calls
Turn – 

SB – 290
BTN – Calls

River – 

What do we do…?

[Patonius2000]

Playing £1-2 Omaha at the Vic, UTG Is German Rick

Villain loose passive stack £1300 – Has been calling light all night

UTG – Tight Aggressive, always raises 7 UTG has done for 6 rounds

Hero – Stack £1900 ( )

Hero – SB

UTG – Raises to 7
UTG +1 Calls
MP – Calls
CO – Calls
BTN – Makes £35
SB – Raises £100

Folds round

BTN – Calls

Flop 

SB – 170
BTN – Calls
Turn – 

SB – 290
BTN – Calls

River – 

What do we do…?

I don't trust loose passive live players to value bet this river with like 99xx and he won't be turning hands in to bluffs (Txxx, 67xx, J7xx) so I would let it fly if he's been calling down light. ~800.

[SuuPRlim]

Yes, agree with Rob, the loose passive typees you describe are unlikely to VBET thinly or bluff with anything that can go on its back (which will be most things on this board) so go for one big bet and hope he has the right type of hand to get stubborn with.

[BangBang]

Decided to put him all in on the river with a bet of £800, thought he may pay off with 88, 99, 9T

The call was pretty instant, with his 99JT, but after the hand he told me if I checked (which I initially intended to do before I hit the K on the river) he would check behind, but he would call any bet I made on the river.  So the river bet was defo the way to go.

What I didn't understand from the Villain was after loosing this hand he told everyone on the table he was £1500 down for the day but then went on to rebuy for £200 into a deep-stacked game? He had the money as he pulled out a huge wad of 50's