Rob Yong and DTD..Your views

[NEWY]

Using a HUD is basically cheating. You are not playing poker using just your own skill/ judgement/ reads etc. Using a HUD is a skill in itself and is not a level playing field for us recs. Players using a hud correctly make decisions largely based on the stats provided by the hud. Whilst I admire and respect successful players like pleno and others for being able to crush online poker aided by their huds, for me it puts me off playing online cos I know long term I will just not be able to win. IMO Online poker is not real poker as I know it cos I am playing against a player and a database.

I think as strong  as rob feels about this I think he should not take it so personal. I don't think even he or anyone else can eliminate Huds and tracking sites so why fight a losing battle.Rob should concentrate on the things he can influence and can make happen and what he is good at. The live club is his baby and without doubt is the premiere poker venue in Europe. No club has done more for players of all levels than dtd. DTD is an amazing club that gives more value to its customers than any other business in any other industry.  DTD is the nuts but without rob and his dream then I am afraid DTD will jus become like every other poker venue.. Good but not great. Don't give up rob just concentrate on the live club.  DTD needs u. Live poker needs u.

I am sure people like pleno make full use of all twelve hands they have in their database on you. I don't know where this mythical idea that huds tell everyone with them about your game but its a load of tripe. Ok, so after say 50 hands I might be able to say he is tight or he is loose but beyond that they are of little to no use at all. Hardly different to a live game and a hud is hardly needed to make these reads in the first place. For some stats you might need thousands of hands for them to become meaningful. Furthermore, imagine I play gouty one friday night, hes had ten pints and instead of posting on blonde decides to play some cash hands somewhere. He is loose, erratic and just a bit fruity overall. The next time we play is a sunday night when he really fancies just having a quiet game with the tv on before work on monday. My hud would be a disadvantage at this point.

If professionals use huds as a crutch why do they win in live poker? I understand some of the points ie it allows people to play more tables etc but this is never the argument being used against huds.

You are obv not the player I was referiring to. I clearly said professionals who know how to use their hud correctly. If you watch pleno videos he clearly states when referring to his hud that player X has high% fold to 3 bet and "we are gonna keep going after these players and keep 3 betting them. He also says in another post he enjoys raising certain players bb with any 2 because their folding too often so it is profitable to do so. If you genuinely believe they are of little or no use then why even bother having 1. Makes no sense. I don't have 1 so am prob not qualified to go into it too much but I would imagine that many pros do rely on them and would struggle if they didn't have this "load of tripe info".  This is just my opinion

[iangascoigne]

Pls correct me if am wrong but I was under the impression that playing at the clubs cash games players would show their real names and not user names? Yesterday when I first tried a go players including me sat on the table showing nicknames! Anyway whichever way I support rob 100% and it would be a massive loss for the uk poker if he decide to withdraw from the industry

Yes its coming, real name display web page being worked on this week to launch asap

That would be good.I don't play online but will do fire up the Commodore/Atari just to support Rob. I was a little suprised to learn that one reg was playing as IanGas1944. Don't mind but people may think I am older than I am.

[cambridgealex]

Newy in my opinion, pros would not struggle without a HUD, they would just win at a slower rate.

[CHIPPYMAN]

Newy in my opinion, pros would not struggle without a HUD, they would just win at a slower rate.

Cheat ! Lol

[janstar]

I'm 58,took up poker as a pastime 3yrs ago..been in pro sports as a player & physio since i was 15 (rugby league).Was in same class at school as Devilfish,came to live in Retford in 1972 moved into a house near Sam Tricketts parents(long befor Sam was born)now im friends with Sam.Advised to play at DTD,so i went along with a friend and never looked back since,what a great place to socialize and enjoy a game of poker.I only play tournements and run 2 venues in the DTD poker league,ive made lots of new friends both at the club and online.Im not very good at poker but i enjoy it,i have no idea about electronic devices to follow players hands and all this 2,3 & 4 betting is beyond me.Sounds like im thick,but i have a degree in human bio mechanics and 3 nursing qualifications so am not that thick....my point is i just want to go to the club play a game and have some fun,DTD provide all that and more...if Rob goes the future of the club becomes uncertain and those comming after me wont have a DTD to go to,so i hope everyone backs Rob and the club.

[pleno1]

HUDs are really not as useful as gets made out in the thread

1- a recreational guy 1 tabling will be able to pick up more than a guy 6 tabling with a HUD, not only do they see the styles but they see reactions to bad beats etc wheras a HUD tells you general stats
2- there is v v v few recreational guys who regs will have a v good sample size on. Example DTD Rec plays for 1 night a week, no reg will have more than a few hundred hands on them maximum
3- with low sample sizes its actually detrimental for a reg to have a HUD sometimes. IE rec finds a good hand 3-25 times and 5 bet jams, the regs hud will tell you that you have a low fold to 4bet or something but its not actually relevant due to sample

All it does is show an indication if somebody is aggresive or tight etc and if a REC is playing 1-3 tables they can pick up exactly the same information. Its just been massively overdramtized.

[DTD-ACES]

Hi

Read these comments. I have never used tracking software. Pleno - can you answer these 2 questions for me please;

1. What % of online cash game pros do you believe use tracking software?

2. Why do this % of online pros bother buying and using the tracking software if it doesn't make any difference

I'm genuinely interested in the answers as I'm strictly a live player.

Cheers for feedback ,Simon

[Simon Galloway]

Gahhhh - just accidentally wiped a looong post

Cliffs:

Very high 90s.
Ofc it makes a difference!  High seen flop + low showdown stats?  Pretty good candidate for a few barrels.
I wouldn't stake someone not using tracking software.  (But tying in with the topic, I ofc would if they were banned universally)
There are some negatives, the false positives already mentioned from bad samples, and the harder transition into live for stat-dependent HUD worshippers

[edgascoigne]

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=60262.msg1713580#msg1713580

[CHIPPYMAN]

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=60262.msg1713580#msg1713580

 

[NEWY]

Newy in my opinion, pros would not struggle without a HUD, they would just win at a slower rate.

But poker is game of small edges and most "pros" prob already struggle.  Not many of the players who claim to be pro are as good or successful as pads and do not earn anything like he does.  I would imagine many of the rakeback pros and those with small/100 bb  etc who use huds wud be significantly affected if the small edge the hud gives them was removed. That small edge over 1000,s hands makes a big difference.

  I don't blame people using them, like I said earlier I think its a skill in itself getting  the most out of them and congrats to those who are successful with them. My point is for people to say they don't make that much difference IMO is complete nonsense. What the point of spending money and the time and effort on them if they don't do anything?

 For the majority of recs playing they are at a disadvantage playing against people who use hud. If I was playing live but I had a friend running round gathering very in depth notes on every  players tendencies on all tables in the comp then he relayed this info to me whenever I was in hand with someone I would be getting an unfair advantage and the other players would prob think it was not fair.

[Dubai]

The whole HUD argument is relatively pointless as majority of people arguing one side don't really understand what they are arguing about

Fwiw I don't use a HUD, probably down to me being lazy for mtts, but for headsup cash particularly plo id say theres loads of stuff a HUD wouldn't spot and might make you make incorrect decisions about re- gameflow, compared to someone decent paying attention.

[DaveShoelace]

The value/advantage of HUDs is vastly overrated. The biggest benefit of tracking software is away from the table, reviewing previous hands and your own leaks etc. Tracking software and HUDs should be separate debates.

HUDs do not, as such, give a player an advantage. If you get two equally skilled players both playing one table only, the player not using the HUD will have the edge because they are actually using the supercomputer that is their brain to make decisions. A one tabling player who uses a HUD is doing themselves a disservice and will probably misuse it.

The more tables a player plays, the lower their earn rate will be at each table. A player who makes $4 an hour at one table might only make $1 an hour on each of the six tables they are playing, but overall they earn more. A HUD does not give them an advantage as much as reduces the disadvantage they create for themselves by multi tabling. For that reason, any recreational player at the table of a pro with a HUD actually benefits in that they are playing against the $1 per hour version of them rather than the $4 per hour. Of course without a HUD but across as many tables they might be playing against a $0.50 per hour version or even a losing version, but then they probably wouldn't be multi tabling in that instance.

So in a world with HUDs, as a recreational player you face more but significantly diluted pros, in a world without them you face less pros but lose a lot more in one sitting when you do. Everyone loses slower because of HUDs, which isn't a bad thing for someone who is a losing player either way.
 
Another important point is a HUD is only as good as the person that uses it. A good player will be able to make the most of the information, a bad player will use it as a crutch and not be able to make decisions for themselves (and as such, will be terrible when they play live).

HUDs are great for the poker rooms themselves, but they rarely admit it, because they obviously allow more rake to be generated by multi tabling. I recently heard that the average six max table online has 4.5 players at it, to give you an indication how significant multi-tabling is. I also recently heard that 1 in 6 online players uses a HUD. No idea what % the pros are, but I would guess high 90s.

I should say that the one big negative about HUDs, for me, is that while I dont think they are bad, I dont think there is any way they cant not sound bad to a new player. Its very hard to explain the pros and cons of a HUD to an experienced player, so for a newbie it would sound very much like its out and out cheating and there isnt much of a way around that.

[MC]

The whole HUD argument is relatively pointless as majority of people arguing one side don't really understand what they are arguing about

+1

[Dubai]

Collusion, multi accounting, blocking tables etc are all major issues and Rob obviously would be putting a stop to this which would be good