Ruling Q

[jjandellis]

New dealer at work. Has made a few (minor) mistakes and been under quite a bit of pressure from some old reg types. On the final table and TD in attendance to watch/teach.

Ultra short stack shoves for tourney life, called. On their backs.

TD is not paying attention and talking to a railer.

Dealer deals flop.

Players point out he hasn't burnt a card.

Dealer/TD cannot say which card would have been first out - although players more or less unanimously say which one it is...

What should happen?

[TightEnd]

Put the flop back in the pack, reshuffle

[zerofive]

You might have to explain why it wasn't possible to determine which card came out first.

If all players agree on a card, then that's the burn card. Up to players to protect the game as well as TD etc.

[TightEnd]

It doesn't matter if the players all agree. If the dealer isn't sure the TD has to order a reshuffle

[gatso]

Put the flop back in the pack, reshuffle

god no

we now have the wrong turn and river

[TightEnd]

Put the flop back in the pack, reshuffle

god no

we now have the wrong turn and river

the turn and river haven't been dealt yet.   

I am pretty sure the redeal is correct here

[gatso]

Put the flop back in the pack, reshuffle

god no

we now have the wrong turn and river

the turn and river haven't been dealt yet.  

I am pretty sure the redeal is correct here

you don't have the right flop so want to correct it by making flop, turn and river incorrect? that makes no sense. surely we keep the bits that we know are correct

IF you want to reshuffle the flop into the deck then you need to take out the turn, river and their burn cards first

but that's a horrible way to deal with it imo

either treat it as a 4 card flop and shuffle the flop with the top card in the deck and pick one of the four to be the burn

or shuffle the 3 cards from the flop, pick one to be the burn and make a new flop from the other 2 and the top card in the deck (as this is the only card we know for sure should be part of the flop)

or ideally just say 'who cares' and keep the flop, it really doesn't matter too much. burn twice for the turn to keep turn and river correct

[gatso]

OK heres what happened.

The race was Ac8c (shorty) versus qh 7x

Flop A x 7

The TD ordered that the next card be exposed, which was a Q.

He took all 4 cards and did a mini wash/shuffle, before giving back to the dealer to place on top of deck and burn/turn.

Obviously the short stack got lucky and stayed alive from this, but alot of disgruntled players around the table (short stack widely regarded in the cardroom as a complete c@ck!)

I'd say this is fine though don't understand why he'd choose to expose the 4th card, completely pointless though it makes no difference when there's no action to come

[TightEnd]

Put the flop back in the pack, reshuffle

god no

we now have the wrong turn and river

the turn and river haven't been dealt yet.  

I am pretty sure the redeal is correct here

you don't have the right flop so want to correct it by making flop, turn and river incorrect? that makes no sense. surely we keep the bits that we know are correct

not often, no. If there is a mistake on flop involving missing burn cards, two burn cards etc, often the flop is redealt. What the turn and river would have been is immaterial

[zerofive]

Not sure if I'm missing something. How do you not see which card comes out first?! It's the card you peel over first... IE peel one, peel two, peel three. Forgot to burn, thus peel one becomes burn, you peel another, the rest is straightforward. If you spread flop (would not expect this from a dealer so inexperienced he forgets to burn) then it's card number 3. If you scoop flop then it's card number 2. Never EVER reshuffle here. Reshuffles should only take place when there is further betting or in rare and extreme scenarios (eg dropped entire deck.) In this instance it really can't be hard to work out the correct burn card and to complete the board.

[pokerfan]

What would be a standard ruling for a duplicate card ?

e.g all in pot hu board runs out  xxx 

[gatso]

fouled deck, all bets returned normally

[SolarCarro]

fouled deck, all bets returned normally

Unless at Grosvenor where everyone is at same disadvantage (even tho AA v set 6's - further A drawn) hand stands!

[zerofive]

... is this a level?

[Cf]

gatso: not buying this "correct" turn and river stuff. I never have.

The turn and river are going to be 2 random cards from the deck.

If we reshuffle the turn and river are still going to be 2 random cards from the deck.

So the same.