$33cubed flopped 2p facing 3b

[Pinchop73]

PokerStars Hand #79239422176: Tournament #569010726, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2012/04/21 23:06:44 WET [2012/04/21 18:06:44 ET]
Table '569010726 7' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Revengaa (7257 in chips)
Seat 3: Amirazadi76 (5675 in chips)
Seat 4: 14Hopper (7475 in chips)
Seat 5: Aleksvik (7010 in chips)
Seat 6: Ultraballs18 (5199 in chips)
Seat 7: bamboocha88 (2620 in chips)
Seat 8: aces_up4108 (7135 in chips)
Seat 9: softcored (7395 in chips)
Aleksvik: posts small blind 15
Ultraballs18: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ultraballs18 [ ]
bamboocha88: folds
aces_up4108: folds
softcored: folds
Revengaa: raises 33 to 63
Amirazadi76: folds
14Hopper: folds
Aleksvik: folds
Ultraballs18: raises 137 to 200
Revengaa: calls 137
*** FLOP *** [Ah ]
Ultraballs18: checks
Revengaa: bets 290
Ultraballs18: raises 410 to 700
Revengaa: raises 943 to 1643
Ultraballs18: raises 3356 to 4999 and is all-in
Revengaa: calls 3356
*** TURN *** [Ah ] []
*** RIVER *** [Ah ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ultraballs18: shows [ ] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
Revengaa: shows [ ] (a full house, Fours full of Fives)

Just wanted to post this to make sure shoving is ok in this spot? I mean I thought of flatting, but then I just thought he's never folding.

bet bet betting ends up getting the lot in too, any reason to play the hand any differently to how I have?

With no real draws out there, this early does a good reg ever have worse?

The only probable set is the fours, can we fold here knowing there's literally 4 hand combo's that beat us?

[Pugwashed]

Pre is fine, cbet the flop every time here. Revengaa is a reg and his value range for 3betting the flop is AK+ so you beat none of it (I actually think his flop 3bet is really bad but nvm). Shoving when you did folds out all his bluffs (in a spot where he might not have any) and gets it in when you're chopping at best. I would never check/raise the flop in this spot but as played I think he pretty much always has it, he's just not going nuts for that many BB at this stage of of 1r1a, this hand is made super weird by the fact that you check/raised AK4r as the 3bettor.

[Pinchop73]

I know villain is a winning reg, which is why I posted this really, as I don't see a mass tabler like him ever getting ool this early.

I've c/r'd to make it look as bluffy as possible to his AQ/AJ/A4s, as I can never really have 44's here, and I'd be flatting AA/KK.

Also cbetting folds so much of his range, most pairs fold to the cbet on this board. I wanted value from this hand.

I'm happy for him to check behind, he's bound to take one stab at it.

[sm00035]

C/r this flop is pretty terrible.

The fact you check raise the flop with the bottam of your range and he still puts chips in the pot should make this an easy fold for you.

I also echo that his 3bet on flop is also bad in that he loses to more hands then he beats when you c/r if you are playing a hand for value, which near enough always are

[sm00035]

I've c/r'd to make it look as bluffy as possible

No offence, but you've done a terrible job

[Pinchop73]

I've c/r'd to make it look as bluffy as possible

No offence, but you've done a terrible job

Your kidding right?! How would I take offence, tis only a game.

I'd far rather hear your thought's than have you sit behind the keyboard and snigger at how bad I am! lol

With a reasonably active image, (running like 22/17ish at this point) the b/c line is easily the best line then yeah?

What would be the most optimum line on a brick turn?

[sm00035]

Just some people seem to take real offence to things on forums etc.

Erm yeh I mean I'm assuming you don't have THAT much history with villain, so the fact you are running at 22/17 is kind of irrelevant as tournie is so early on and this is likely to be some of the only stats he has on you, that's even if he is using a HUD. I think something more relevant would be how you have lost 800 of your chip already as I am assuming he has witnessed this!?

I think bet/call is defo the best line. It is important to realise though there is a huge chance you are bet calling as you are losing, not trapping him. Depending on turns I think you can check fold most of them. In game it's obv a lot harder and I might even end up check calling turn. It defo is an option as check calling turn and check jam river, but unless you have a lot of history, or know 100% he is a decent player, I would not get into the habit of trying to make people fold sets.

[sm00035]

Or even top pair

[Pugwashed]

I also echo that his 3bet on flop is also bad in that he loses to more hands then he beats when you c/r if you are playing a hand for value, which near enough always are

This isn't really the reason why I said I thought his flop 3bet was bad. With 44 he's flipping against AK/AA/KK. The reason I thought his flop 3bet was bad is because if he's looking for a good way to play against the c/r with his entire range then he might well have bet the flop with AQ/AJ but obviously these become pure bluff catchers against the c/r when you rep a completely polarised range, if he just calls the c/r, calls the turn and calls a shove on the river he still gets the money in against your value range but possibly keeps some bluffs in. Obv raising bluff catchers achieves nothing so if he wanted to continue in the hand with these after being check/raised on the flop then he should call so its still possible you have some bluffs, also calling the c/r with all his nutted stuff protects his bluff catchers and also makes it easier to get paid with his nutted hands when he can have some weaker parts to his range that could fold later streets. Basically, I don't think he should have a flop 3betting range here especially when 3betting the flop is not necessary for him to get all the money in, his entire range that wants to continue after getting check/raised should be flatting the check/raise imo.

I may have been rambling a bit but I hope that made sense

[sm00035]

I also echo that his 3bet on flop is also bad in that he loses to more hands then he beats when you c/r if you are playing a hand for value, which near enough always are

This isn't really the reason why I said I thought his flop 3bet was bad. With 44 he's flipping against AK/AA/KK. The reason I thought his flop 3bet was bad is because if he's looking for a good way to play against the c/r with his entire range then he might well have bet the flop with AQ/AJ but obviously these become pure bluff catchers against the c/r when you rep a completely polarised range, if he just calls the c/r, calls the turn and calls a shove on the river he still gets the money in against your value range but possibly keeps some bluffs in. Obv raising bluff catchers achieves nothing so if he wanted to continue in the hand with these after being check/raised on the flop then he should call so its still possible you have some bluffs, also calling the c/r with all his nutted stuff protects his bluff catchers and also makes it easier to get paid with his nutted hands when he can have some weaker parts to his range that could fold later streets. Basically, I don't think he should have a flop 3betting range here especially when 3betting the flop is not necessary for him to get all the money in, his entire range that wants to continue after getting check/raised should be flatting the check/raise imo.

I may have been rambling a bit but I hope that made sense

Erm I think that is pretty much what I said no?! Albeit in just 1 sentance. Or may be it is just what I thought.

You have kind of lost me, I'm tired and had a little to drink. Basically what I was trying to say was by 3betting flop he loses to 2 of your value hands and beats 1, if you are playing your hand for value, WHICH YOU NEAR ENOUGH ALWAYS ARE. Obviously if you are bluffing then I don't expect you/think this is ever the right board to 4bet bluff on.

[sm00035]

And yeh flatting the c/r is obv good as it keeps your range a whole bunch wider

[Pugwashed]

I also echo that his 3bet on flop is also bad in that he loses to more hands then he beats when you c/r if you are playing a hand for value, which near enough always are

This isn't really the reason why I said I thought his flop 3bet was bad. With 44 he's flipping against AK/AA/KK. The reason I thought his flop 3bet was bad is because if he's looking for a good way to play against the c/r with his entire range then he might well have bet the flop with AQ/AJ but obviously these become pure bluff catchers against the c/r when you rep a completely polarised range, if he just calls the c/r, calls the turn and calls a shove on the river he still gets the money in against your value range but possibly keeps some bluffs in. Obv raising bluff catchers achieves nothing so if he wanted to continue in the hand with these after being check/raised on the flop then he should call so its still possible you have some bluffs, also calling the c/r with all his nutted stuff protects his bluff catchers and also makes it easier to get paid with his nutted hands when he can have some weaker parts to his range that could fold later streets. Basically, I don't think he should have a flop 3betting range here especially when 3betting the flop is not necessary for him to get all the money in, his entire range that wants to continue after getting check/raised should be flatting the check/raise imo.

I may have been rambling a bit but I hope that made sense

Erm I think that is pretty much what I said no?! Albeit in just 1 sentance. Or may be it is just what I thought.

You have kind of lost me, I'm tired and had a little to drink. Basically what I was trying to say was by 3betting flop he loses to 2 of your value hands and beats 1, if you are playing your hand for value, WHICH YOU NEAR ENOUGH ALWAYS ARE. Obviously if you are bluffing then I don't expect you/think this is ever the right board to 4bet bluff on.

It wasn't what you said, it may have been what you meant but it's quite different and what you said before is basically what you said again there, which were quite different / incorrect (in this spot) reasons against 3betting the flop. Your post reads as though you think 3betting the flop is bad from Revengaa's point of view because we only get it in against his value range and that we're behind that. If you poker stove it then we're flipping against an assumed value range of AK/AA/KK. But yeah, like you said in the post above this one its pretty much about keeping our range as wide as possible, keeping his bluffs in and not capping your bet/calling range on the flop by 3betting your nutted hands (that last sentence may have been a much easier way to say what I was saying in my last post)

[action man]

cbet flop but as played, just a cooler

[expat]

PokerStars Hand #79239422176: Tournament #569010726, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2012/04/21 23:06:44 WET [2012/04/21 18:06:44 ET]
Table '569010726 7' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Revengaa (7257 in chips)
Seat 3: Amirazadi76 (5675 in chips)
Seat 4: 14Hopper (7475 in chips)
Seat 5: Aleksvik (7010 in chips)
Seat 6: Ultraballs18 (5199 in chips)
Seat 7: bamboocha88 (2620 in chips)
Seat 8: aces_up4108 (7135 in chips)
Seat 9: softcored (7395 in chips)
Aleksvik: posts small blind 15
Ultraballs18: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ultraballs18 [ ]
bamboocha88: folds
aces_up4108: folds
softcored: folds
Revengaa: raises 33 to 63
Amirazadi76: folds
14Hopper: folds
Aleksvik: folds
Ultraballs18: raises 137 to 200
Revengaa: calls 137
*** FLOP *** [Ah ]
Ultraballs18: checks
Revengaa: bets 290
Ultraballs18: raises 410 to 700
Revengaa: raises 943 to 1643
Ultraballs18: raises 3356 to 4999 and is all-in
Revengaa: calls 3356
*** TURN *** [Ah ] []
*** RIVER *** [Ah ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ultraballs18: shows [ ] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
Revengaa: shows [ ] (a full house, Fours full of Fives)

Just wanted to post this to make sure shoving is ok in this spot? I mean I thought of flatting, but then I just thought he's never folding.

bet bet betting ends up getting the lot in too, any reason to play the hand any differently to how I have?

With no real draws out there, this early does a good reg ever have worse?

The only probable set is the fours, can we fold here knowing there's literally 4 hand combo's that beat us?

Unless you strongly know that he can be raising weak then on the flop it is possible to get away from this hand when he raises 943 to 1643.  You have a nice stack of 3356 left at blinds of 15/30 if you fold!

[Pinchop73]

Erm yeh I mean I'm assuming you don't have THAT much history with villain, so the fact you are running at 22/17 is kind of irrelevant as tournie is so early on and this is likely to be some of the only stats he has on you, that's even if he is using a HUD. I think something more relevant would be how you have lost 800 of your chip already as I am assuming he has witnessed this!?

Yeah no previous, I just opr'd him and saw he was a very decent winner. I only took one rebuy at the start whereas he took both hence the disparity in chips. Up to this point I'd won two small pot and lost one, folding to a nit's ip 3b.

I think bet/call is defo the best line. It is important to realise though there is a huge chance you are bet calling as you are losing

There are literally 5 hand combinations that beat us, I don't see that as a huge chance that we're beat, that's a little results orientated imo. But you'd had a couple so we'll let that slide.

Many thanks for your contibutions though!

omg and as I type this I get coolered AGAIN in a $33cubed. fmfl. When the doom switch is on, it's on.

PokerStars Hand #79273888090: Tournament #546367385, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (40/80) - 2012/04/22 17:29:51 WET [2012/04/22 12:29:51 ET]
Table '546367385 11' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: trio 3o (7009 in chips)
Seat 2: WallterBish (8120 in chips)
Seat 3: squee451 (3000 in chips)
Seat 4: Donald (2294 in chips)
Seat 5: Funnnuraba (5470 in chips)
Seat 6: VinceVegaMFR (9023 in chips)
Seat 7: mement_mori (8239 in chips)
Seat 8: murkus84 (3636 in chips)
Seat 9: Ultraballs18 (6090 in chips)
VinceVegaMFR: posts small blind 40
mement_mori: posts big blind 80
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ultraballs18 [ ]
murkus84: raises 120 to 200
Ultraballs18: calls 200
squee451 re-buys and receives 3000 chips for $30.00
trio 3o: folds
WallterBish: raises 495 to 695
squee451: folds
Donald: folds
Funnnuraba: folds
VinceVegaMFR: folds
mement_mori: folds
murkus84: raises 2941 to 3636 and is all-in
Ultraballs18: raises 2454 to 6090 and is all-in
WallterBish: calls 5395
*** FLOP *** [ ]
*** TURN *** [ ] []
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ultraballs18: shows [ ] (a pair of Queens)
WallterBish: shows [ ] (a pair of Kings)
WallterBish collected 4908 from side pot
murkus84: shows [ ] (a pair of Nines)
WallterBish collected 11028 from main pot