blonde poker forum

I know nothing of stats and figures as to why I should do things.  I just click buttons but would like to know on this one. Guess trivial

Opens 5x and called in one spot, doubt we can get a fold although caller may if raiser isos.  Feels like we are likely flipping against a pair.  With the two stacks seemed an obvious fold but just felt dirty in a turbo.

PokerStars Hand #127778778228: Tournament #1087465496, $1.00+$0.10 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIII (5000/10000) - 2014/12/30 23:38:07 WET [2014/12/30 18:38:07 ET]
Table '1087465496 36' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Macseg (35331 in chips)
Seat 2: ongravity (360113 in chips)
Seat 3: badbeatpok26 (257568 in chips)
Seat 4: lwd_izzo (421529 in chips)
Seat 5: Rab90 (153057 in chips)
Seat 6: bugor 76 (32527 in chips)
Seat 9: carol@juan (375875 in chips)
Macseg: posts the ante 2000
ongravity: posts the ante 2000
badbeatpok26: posts the ante 2000
lwd_izzo: posts the ante 2000
Rab90: posts the ante 2000
bugor 76: posts the ante 2000
carol@juan: posts the ante 2000
Rab90: posts small blind 5000
bugor 76: posts big blind 10000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rab90 [As Kc]
carol@juan: raises 40000 to 50000
Macseg: folds
ongravity: calls 50000
badbeatpok26: folds
lwd_izzo: folds

Get it in mate! If ive read it right we have AK with 15 bigs in a turbo, dream spot

Two players have 3BB, that not worry you?

Not at all, the more the merrier, we want the big stacks chips.

Is it the bubble?

I'm still jamming there all day long even if it's the bubble. It's a turbo and we want as many chips as possible to bully the shorter stacks that want to ladder etc etc.

We have a fantastic hand, dominating a lot of the 5xers range, and flipping against a large part of the rest of it.

Great spot to gamble, get a stack, run deep and win it:)

Should have said, final table.  $22 for 9th and $250ish for 1st

We are playing for 1st everytime. The money from 9th-4th, probs even 3rd, will be pretty insignificant. And this is a great spot to really build up some chips.

Incredibly arrogant thing to say. What might be insignificant to you could be a big bankroll boost for someone else.

I think we can (just about) fold this. Not often I'd say that about big slick on a FT! Wouldn't object to you going for it, but looks like you're getting looked up in 2 spots and AKo shrinks a bit 3 way.

Table dynamic (which we're not privy too) might dictate it to be a jam though. The fact its a 5x open AND call might make it an auto all in :)

Incredibly arrogant thing to say. What might be insignificant to you could be a big bankroll boost for someone else.

I think we can (just about) fold this. Not often I'd say that about big slick on a FT! Wouldn't object to you going for it, but looks like you're getting looked up in 2 spots and AKo shrinks a bit 3 way.

Table dynamic (which we're not privy too) might dictate it to be a jam though. The fact its a 5x open AND call might make it an auto all in :)
[/quote]

haha it's bad enough you troll the sky forums, now you want to come here and troll on blonde.

It's totally disingenuous of you to misquote what I said, which was nothing to do with the stakes in question, but is relevant for all MTT's - we should always playing for 1st/ atleast the top three in MTT's as well you know.

No more feeding the troll from me, that's your one and only response.



 

The question is what the ICM numbers look like in this spot, so talking about how 'significant' the money is would be completely irrelevant.

To try and answer the question somewhat accurately we would need to know what all the remaining payouts are and do we have any stats / info on either villain so we can try and apportion some kind of range?

Both villains have zero on OCR and this is 3 hands into final.  Caller seemed a tad erratic when playing with him a few tables out.  Both seemed potentially bad.  $1 rebuy so likely likely so.

Money was like $22, $33, $44, $57 $73, $105, $140, $190 $250 (rough guess)

I haven't misquoted anything, it's all there in black and white for all to see. If you meant something different, you might want to look at wording things better next time. If you mean insignificant in relation to whats up top then you should make that clear. Though again, it's all relative.

Playing for first doesn't necessarily mean going gung ho with everything strong on a FT. A more subtle approach in certain spots might sometimes be required. I don't think this is as clear a GII and be happy decision as you seem to think it is. There are definite ICM considerations with 2 micro stacks. Laddering on a FT can be a fine art as well, so no, although we want to win obviously, we are not basing every decision on whether we want to finish first or not. There are shades of grey.

And please look up the meaning of the word 'troll'.

I have run some numbers on a few ranges and both of them would have to be capable of getting it in pretty wide here for us to be good from an ICM point of view.  They would both have to be a fair bit wider than 10% of hands here for us to be able to jam.  Taking everything into account I think we should fold here unless were 100% sure that UTG is capable of doing this with kitchens.

Well this thread escalated quickly -

@ OverTheBorder, I was chatting with theprawnidentity about this a little because I have basically no idea. I am leaning towards a fold, but certainly can't justify it as effectively as he can. These spots are definitely really interesting though, looking forward to seeing the results of the maths.

@shipitgood, icm is an extremely important consideration in any mtters decision making process. "Playing for first" is not the point, the point is all about making decisions that will be the most profitable for you in the long term. If you want to get good at mtts and crush tournaments, you will need to gain a solid grounding in icm.

@hhyftrftdr and shipitgood relax guys! People often type things which come out in a way they haven't intended, and imo both of you have on this occasion. Just cool it and enjoy the maths :p

In before tomsom posts a repl..... O ffs.

This is what might happen if you ignore ICM:

" The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold,
And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold;
And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea,
When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.

   Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green,
That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown,
That host on the morrow lay withered and strown.

   For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!

   And there lay the steed with his nostril all wide,
But through it there rolled not the breath of his pride;
And the foam of his gasping lay white on the turf,
And cold as the spray of the rock-beating surf.

   And there lay the rider distorted and pale,
With the dew on his brow, and the rust on his mail:
And the tents were all silent, the banners alone,
The lances unlifted, the trumpet unblown.

   And the widows of Ashur are loud in their wail,
And the idols are broke in the temple of Baal;
And the might of the Gentile, unsmote by the sword,
Hath melted like snow in the glance of the Lord!"

Basically, shit will get destroyed, and it will be bad. God will kill you in your sleep.

ICM Wise, it may well be a fold.

There was a similar example posted on sky a while ago with AK, it was the FT of the Sunday Night Primo. The action was probs more standard as in normal size raise/ 3 bet with AK, 4 bet Jam, which was called, other guy had QQ, winning in the flip, both players had very decent stacks 5/6 handed on the FT.

Despite the ICM consideration I would be gambling here to get a stack. Especially considering it's a turbo and when the blinds go up again we might only have 12/13 bigs or whatever.

The only reason I would fold is if I had a solid read that massive raises 4x 5x = AA or KK. Sometimes this raise size from this type of player is exactly that. Othertimes, it can be hands like 77-88, AQ AJ, they just think I have an ok hand and don't want any callers better raise massive to make them fold.

The 5 x is really interesting tho for sure.

 

If you're gonna mention the hand from the Sky Roller then at least get the details right. as they are quite important; it was raised UTG, and 3bet jammed from a 40bb stack holding QQ.....the action was then on the chip leader in the blinds playing about 50bb and had AKo. The guy posted the hand cos it was quite an unusual spot, and certainly a very tricky situation.

As the gentleman said before me, if you want to start ''crushing'' tournaments next year, you need to get a decent grasp of ICM.

With the volume I play, and the field sizes, when I hit a final I really need to top 5 minimum. You don't get that many chances. It so happens this is literally the lowest gtee comp I play (run better) but the spot just seemed yuky. 30-40 out I think I stick it in but on FT I felt it was a fold but wasn't sure.

My general wish is to get my chips in first. As it's harder to call correct than it is to jam correct for most low stakes players. Until the short stacks are gone I like to stay alive. Then from 6th onwards we get it in as big stacks are crying out to give cheap doubles.

I folded in game. They get it all in on KQ7 flop with A7 and QQ. So turns out UTG was a rofler

Can be almost head scratching trying to put small buyin players on a hand both live and online at times.
Guess the worst thing we can do from a thinking players point of view is try and use our logic for them, which on most
occasions is far off the mark.

As poker players we are all thinking on different levels and you want your thinking to be ahead of your opponents.
It can be hard to level ourselves down and get into the heads of the recreational players.

And you are correct in a sense to want to have the first in vigorish. Personally don't mind ramping the aggression back
slightly here as people do tend to go nuts when the final table does open so I see now harm in giving the shortstacks
chance to get all in, here its two decent size stacks though.

Adopted a more aggressive approach towards the end of the year maybe it just didn't suit my style of play but I found myself
losing a decent amount (all) of these huge pots late on in MTT's. No harm in taking the cautious route if you are on a limited bankroll
and don't have a full grasp of shove/fold ICM etc.

Well played good fold.