blonde poker forum

Everone I speak to says they are a winning player online. Lets allow for a bit of journalistic licence (ie "i broke even"="i lost") in the re-telling of a lot of poker tales, but nonetheless we are in a zero sum game.

Nevertheless I suspect that those who take the time to read, learn, post on sites like this, ask strategy questions etc probably do win.

If you are all winning....there have to be losers on the other side. ( Last night there were 6538 players on Stars when I logged on ).

Why do you think you win online? Why don't the losers adapt/try and learn/go away?

What is your opinion on how long this supply of seemingly losing money can last?

For the record I do win online, but overwhelmingly on NL SnGs and to a lesser extent limit cash rather than any other particular game. For example I don't win overall on MTTs.


Your thoughts please

It's a negative sum game due to the rake (which is a significant amount if you see how much is taken).

I think the main reason why people continue to play is that they enjoy it, some people don't play to win.

I would say overall I am a loser... however, I have been playing about 4 years, the first 3 of which I was at Uni, was learning (slowly) and really was not a good player. That was my education if you will. The following year I probably did break even playing at low levels.

The last nine months I am defintiely up, i've withdrawn a lot more than I deposited.

I can only imagine there are a lot of players who play for fun like I did and don't care too much about the winning, i know i didn't to begin with.

Furthermore, I have recently been working on my MTT game (i make my money purely from STTs at the moment) and I knew I would have to pay to improve my game.

I believe I've been as sensible as I possibly can and have been exclusively playing Freerolls, $1 and $3 MTTs simply to improve my game and learn as much as I can. Recently, I have managed to cash in a couple of $10 MTT which has more than paid for my new 'education'.

One reason i've done well on STT for the past 9 months or so is down to discipline off of the table. If i sit down at night and play a STT and lose - i'm done. Bad beat, bad play, whatever - that's it for the night. I know any reason for me losing will mean that I'm not playing my A game, or at least won't be for the rest of the night. I'm pretty sure, most internet players will play all night, win or lose.


So basically, I think that the reason some of us do well, or have done well, is basically as we're all in different stages of our game and everyone is happy to pay for their own education. Some learn quick, others take 3 years (like me) and pay for the rest of us (you).  ;D

I always thought that sng's were so adictive that there would be a never ending supply of fish, but then I had a couple of old friends who I see every now and again start playing them. To me a game that I love playing that I actually make money from as well is the greatest thing ever, but even though I said they were welcome to come round and I'd probably be able to show them how to beat the $10s in a couple of hours they couldn't be bothered, carried on losing and eventually gave it up. As they are carrying on playing golf, pool etc it's slightly worrying to me that they gave up on poker so quickly. Especially as one of them has a real low paying job and the other one works 2 jobs, a part time game where they make money would seem to be ideal ???

i have ups and downs. i look at it week by week then monthly. when im winning i feel confident and when im playing a mtt or a stt i feel i can make more plays. when im losing im less confident i dont raise as much, i dont always try and nick pots i seem to wait for the hands to come to me rather than going looking for them. as far as winning goes and losing overall goes i very rarely take the money i win out of my will hill account. so if 1 month i win and leave it in there but the next month i lose whats in there have i lost or broke even i dont know how people look at it, to me that is breaking even

It appears it can go on for ever as the new players keep coming and i reckon if you are not naturally disposed to the maths and the strategy research that decent players will use to turn the hobbie into a profit making excercise it can take a couple of years to start figuring out some basics that others will be fully understanding after a couple of months.

I like you win the majority of my money in nl stt's, although i have noticed something intresting in that the toughest to win are the games a couple above the minimum stake e.g. 10/20 when it goes 3/5/10/20 etc. I think this is where people start to move to when they have learnt the most important early rule (hand selection) and they are mostly rocks so these can go on for what seems like an eternity. I think above that you have cash rich fish and quality players hoovering up the cash. (playing at 50 stt the other day and we down to three players after 16 hands!!!)

I am quite a long way ahead in mtt's but only due to sparkling run late last year, i think players mtt standards improve much more quickly as a result of them showing a fairly quick aversion to ring games as they are seemingly throwing money away and their moves are harder to get through. They then do their learning in mtt's and revisit the cash games later so the standard past the 1st couple of rounds in most mtt's is quite good.

I'm sure that a decent tight aggressive player will always find people to pay them off when they catch a monster.

Cos most of these 'losers' just think they're unlucky.

This is a great thread, I am very interested in peoples views on this subject, more please

I believe it is possible to make a money online but you really have to apply yourself, it isnt always fun and it certainly isnt easy

I started playing fulltime poker at the beginning of this year and I have kept detailed records of my wins/losses

I had an amazing run during Feb/Mar when I turned a profit of $90k, but I knew that was just a blip, reality is a little different, but Feb/Mar aside, my online "earnings" work out to $4470 per month (so far)

A fellow blondite sent me a PM asking me what my thoughts on "Full time" online play were, for anyone who is interested, I have reproduced my reply below

Hi, In answer to your bankroll question, I suppose I initially just threw a couple of hundred into an account, and when it was gone I threw in another couple, remember, at this time I had no intention of playing poker for a living, I was just trying to see if I could turn a profit, if I built my bankroll up to five or six hundred I played bigger games and if I got skint I went back to the smaller stuff, I tried not to deposit more than 100 per week

By the time I decided to go "full time" I had already had some success and had a good idea of what games suited me and what I thought was a reasonable expectation, I figured I needed 10k to give it a proper bash, I only play multis online so the paydays can be quite far apart and you have to realise you will lose a lot more times than you win

This brings me to what I consider to be the most important aspects of online play for profit, but please bear in mind these things suit me and my type of game, you might have to change/modify them to suit yourself

1 if you started poker as a live player and had some success this can be a disadvantage, online players dont have the ability to lay a hand down like live players do, its so easy to press that call button and they dont have to face the ridicule of the other players face to face at the poker table, also, if they get knocked out they dont have to get into the car, drive home and wait until tomorrow night for another game, so dont try to make moves early, and bet your monster hands big, they will call

2 Gather as much information as you can, restrict your play to one or two sites initially, you will find that the same players play in the same games night after night and you can soon get to know their games, dont play two games at once, dont watch the telly between hands, and concentrate even if your not involved, make notes, MAKE NOTES!

3 Dont make the mistake of playing any old game thats available at the time, the value varies enormously, plan your schedule and stick to it

4 Try not to get angry, upset or frustrated, Its so easy to go on tilt but so hard to recognise or admit it, Dont play when you are too tired, or have something else on your mind, If your game isnt what it should be, have a day off.

5 Find the best games, the ones that suit you and offer the best value, watch out for guaranteed freeze outs that dont have enough entrys to make the guarantee, take advantage of other peoples "bad play times" i.e. 9am on Poker stars, when its 3am for the Americans and they are tired, losing, and tilting, or midnight on Ladbrokes when they come back from the pub

6 Keep records, where you played, how well you think you played, your results, where you make your best profit and your biggest losses, Be totally honest with yourself

7 please keep it in perspective, dont play with money you cant afford to lose or when its loss will affect those around you

I hope you dont think Im setting myself up as some sort of oracle here, I am the last person to give advice as a rule, these few points are just meant to something for you to take on board as you develop your game

I wish you the very best of luck and if I can help in any way, please feel free to ask

Tom

Nice reply RED.

RED DOG thats one of the best things ive read on here yet

thanks for that

I agree Red Dog - great post - surprised you just missed...

9.  Look for aggressive muppets like claypole in their early days on laddies - stalk them, follow them from table to table and take all there money  ;)

Nice one, Red-Dog, once again.  :D

Nice post Red Dog.

I guess the people who are losing are (a) the new players - at the moment there's a pretty steady stream of them, after a while they learn get better and start winning, then move up stakes and maybe start losing again for a while then get better etc. so there should always be value at every level as long as the new players keep coming. That's not to say that they are losers at all stakes, nor to say after 6 months that they'll still be losing, and (b) the players who are just playing for a laugh - could be lowish stakes players who see it as entertainment and is costing them roughly the same as an evening down the Pub, equally could be stupidly rich people playing 'high-stakes' who enjoy throwing their cash around a bit. Bless their silk socks  :D

nice post red dog i was just waiting for the punchline

Excellent post Tom. Thanks.

Nice post red.

Couple of questions if i may?

What would have happened if you had gone broke/go broke? (are you alright for cash anyway?)

Are you happy at sitting at the computer for long periods of time and that being pretty much it? (how long do you spend?)

Did you give up a job to start or were you already without?


I have considered it before but have a decent job and don't think i could stick sitting in the house all day. I played tournaments, sattelites and the odd stt on the side for a period of 3 months towards the end of last year and managed to turn a profit of 14k.  The problem was everything else suffered, job, social life etc. I have to admit i was loving it and was playing better and better but i'm not good on a couple of hours sleep every night.

Hi ACE

Wouldnt play untill I went broke, (family to feed) set a bankroll to one side to give it a try,

I had a small, 'one man' business that I can go back to if need be

I play between 8 and 10 hours most days but if I get to a final table or win one (I usualy play the bigger multis) I tend to take a few hours off because I find it hard to adjust back to the kind of play needed for the start of a tourney after the cut and thrust of a final

It was mostly a lifestyle thing for me, I've worked hard all my life and wanted to grab a little pleasure before its too late, "times winged chariot" and all that, my kids are a an age where they dont need me to be involved so much in ther lives any more, though strangely enough I spend more time with them now, and I have the worlds best wife. If poker became detrimental to my family in any way I would give it up in a heartbeat

I'm one of those people that dosnt need much sleep, always have been, even pre poker, I chug along fine on about 5/6 hours a night with the occasional 12 hour flakeout every now and then

I love it, and I intend to push it as far as I can

Wish me luck

Tom

good luck red dog.
if you dont mind me asking what sort of stakes do you play for red?? is it mainly stt ot mtt you play?? just curious

Hi Dan

mostly multis, $50 to $500, working on SNG's though

Thanks. Good luck. ;D

Good post Red.

Regarding the question on going broke, as far as I am concerned the single most important aspect of full time / part time play is bank roll management. On one of the shows on the poker channel the other week someone said (cant remember who, may have been Mike C)

A fantastic player with poor bank roll management will make less money in the long run than an average player with fantastic bank roll management


Ive been playing for about 2years now and gradually worked my way up the ladder playing mainly cash games with the odd tournie dabble. Last Jan I toyed with the idea reducing my working week to 2 or 3 days and actually relying on Poker for income. I posted this thread on the HM forum and got a fantastic response from the community (thanks by the way, a few of you Junior etc asked for an update on progress , I guess this is it!!)  

http://www.thehendonmob.com/MobForum/read.php?f=1&i=39368&t=39368&v=t

In the end I bottled out for a few months, I kind of went half part time, electing to take some unpaid days here and there when I had a good month etc.

Things have been going pretty well and finally last month I bit the bullet and Im now down to half a week. Having to rely on poker to pay the rent / keep the mrs happy is a little scary, but it does help focus the mind.  Going part time at work does leave some doors open to me to return and it keeps my benefits and pension ticking over.

Out of my bank roll every month now I must pay the short fall in wages and top up my pension with the difference, that was the deal with the mrs (plus some DIY round the house ;) )

The only thing that can ruin this new found life style that I love so much is going broke, as such over the past 6 months Ive worked out a fairly robust bank roll system to insure against that eventuality.

The only thing it needs to work is discipline. Harder than it sounds!!

Rule 1: Keep living money and poker money totally separate.
Rule 2: No leakage!! Roulette , BJ, the nags!
Rule 3: Keep detailed daily records.


Work on the principle of having two pots Main Bank roll and a Reserve.

I started out with a nominal figure as a main bank roll. For the sake of argument say 10k. Out of this I need to pay myself a wage of say 1k a month come hell or high water.

If I make more than the required 1k in a month. 50% of the excess is paid into the poker reserve (instant access high rate savings account) and 50% goes to the household slush fund for holidays and fun stuff for me and the Mrs.

Continue like this each month until the reserve gets to a comfortable level.... say 5k or maybe 10k?  You can only dip into the reserve when the main bank roll drops to 10% of its starting level (not happened yet, but got close once!!!)

Associated with the BR are strict rules on the level of game I can play. When it drops below 30% of its starting level I have to drop limits to protect the bank roll etc. Having the safety net of a reserve just takes the pressure off on a bad run and building it up in the manner outlined means you tuck away a little for a rainy day every time you have a good month.

To most of you I guess this sounds fairly draconian! It does need strict discipline to enforce, however it was set up to maintain my new lifestyle for as long as possible.

I cant imagine going back to full time work now and if I went bust thats what id have to do!!


GL

Great post Dog. Nothing earth shattering there, but certainly worth reading good solid info like that from time to time to remind us all of the basics.

@ Jim, enjoyed that too mate. I need help here and I must come round to see your record keeping etc soon if that's ok (I promise not to look at the figures). I also want to watch you play on line if that's ok? I don't want you to adjust your style and tighten up etc because you think I am watching your play, but just to watch and discuss your moves as they happen.

Have you decided what you are doing about Luton yet? Are you staying there or commuting back and forth? I am going to go on the Monday for the 200er so I can give you a lift if you want?

No problem Rob pop round any time. Def up for Luton sent the membership off yesterday. Think I will commute but may stop over one night if any of the BF lot are making the trip. Happy to share a lift.... if you dont mind waiting till the end of the night ;)

Cheers Jim. Good point about the membership (I don't think my Walsall one counts although they are the same group.

Oh, btw, of course I don't mind waiting for you to finish your cash game as I will still be in the main event ;)

Nah you need to register with Luton... you can use the same card though.  Goto the Grov web site and print off a membership form then fax it to em from work.

thanks Splash - some useful ideas there!

Red-dog -useful advice as ever!

Good post splash, and thanks for the link, some intresting opinions there

I did notice that everyone seems to play cash, I almost never do

With regards to cash.  I never played it until recently - i was just a tourney man but the problem is and you pointed his out yourself Red that your tourney paydays are few and far between and you lose more than you win (times that is..not money), whereas with cash you should be able to grind and make a steady profit which should in effect pay for your entries to multis and keep you ticking over from a bankroll poit of view?! - its just a case of finding the game and the site and sticking to a tight but aggressive game.
IMO

Cash is my bread and butter,  it's not as exciting as going into a final table of a big MTT but i think that and STTs are the best way to make a living.   I'm surprised that Red does so well out of just playing MTTs!   

The trouble with cash games is the massive fluctuations..... you can go on a bad run and tilt a bit and before you know it youve done half your bank roll in 3hrs.   I all comes down to picking the correct limits for your bank roll and staying in control, but everyone tilts now and again.     I've had days where i've had all my money in 6 or 7 times when in front and been outdrawn each time, it can get expensive if you are sitting with 500 or a k.  With STTs u always have a bit more control and you dont need as big a bank roll to manage the fluctuations.

Been to one or two festivals recently and was shocked at the poor standard of play in the cash games by some of the well known tournie players,  I guess they like to blow off some steam on the side action and gamble a little.   I also know a few very good tournament players whos cash game is shocking, it's a different totally different game and mind set.

 
 Some great posts & opinions. Hope this isn't changing the subject a little, but I was chatting to one of the PR guys from a poker/casino site the other day & I asked him if thought the poker bubble would burst or not. Apparently the company thinking is that it won't burst but grow, with poker/casino sites being alongside porn & dating, in popularity, as to how the public uses the internet. My guess is that people have always loved to gamble & that will always be the case. Any thoughts?

Junior,

That is how I approach playing cash/tournaments. The problem I have is I play hours of limit cash and then fail to change my game to the needs of tournaments. When I play loads of tournaments I then start playing too loose in the cash games. I feel my cash and tournament games have suffered because I am mixing it up instaed of doing it the Reddog way.

Does anyone else struggle to adapt or got some advice?

Hours of limit cash??  Oh my!  How on earth do you do that?   ;D

I recognise what you are saying about the switch between tournies and cash though,  i've suffered as well from that although getting better.   

Although this goes against some of Reds advice i tend to multitable 1 or 2 NL cash games and then kick off a big MTT at the same time,  I play fairly tight on the MTT for 2-3 hours (this sits ok with the cash approach)  then shut down the one or all of the cash game as the bubble approaches and move into agro mode....  once the MTT is finished I usally off to bed or maybe carry on in the same mode on a couple of 6 packs.

That was my approach exactly when i was thinking seeriously about going for the lifestyle. Everytime i was playing an mtt i would have the cash game open as well and just be an absolute rock for hours on end almost always turning a profit and fairly often a sizeable profit.

To be honest Splash I do find it tedious, I do play some pot limit too as I think pot limit is a interesting. I tend to play the 10-20-50 rebuy events in my local casinos and have the same discipline as playing cash but find it tough to play 6 hour mutlis online as I start to get 'creative' instead of being patient.

lol I'm the worlds worst for creative play when playing one table..... thats the reason i tend to play 2 or 3 tables at once, i know other aspects of my game (notes on players etc) suffer for this though.

I think thats why i'll never be a good tournie player, especially at B&M... I need to work on being more patient, i get fed up and do something silly.. maybe i should get myself a ipod or something!

When I do mulit table and have the tournie running in the back ground its amazing the number of times i'll wake up 10 from the money with a decent stack just by not thinking about it too much. The trouble is I have developed a bad habit of being chip lead with 30 left and finishing in the high 10s or teens. 3 times in the past month twice in the sunday 30k and once in the 10 seat CPC give away!!!  Maybe I should keep the cash games running until the end??!