blonde poker forum

MTT on Bet fred you can#t copy hand history so I will describe it.

Blinds 30/60 I'm UTG.

I'm deal Jc Js and make it 300 to go.  Firstly I don't like Jacks and if I had been in later position I would probably have folded to any bet.  They are bogey hand.  Anyway, mt image at the table is quite tight only been involved in 1 hand when I showed the nuts.

it folds round to the SB who is also short stack and he calls. 

BB thinks for an age fbefore folding.

flop is Ah 5 X I instanntly think he has the ace and he pushed his last 320 in the middle I have a healthy stack as I had managed to quadruple up early doors.

So theres 980 in the middle 320 to call do I fold or pass??

Mmmm Difficult question Fold or Pass?? :D

Personally your raise of 5 x BB is a little strong especially with the fact you dont like the hand plus you're in ep so to some it looks like a raise that doesn't want calling.  If SB is going to call he may as well push imo, however, he might have noted your tight image and decided to just push regardless of the flop and pass a little doubt over to you, especially if an Ace flops and you have anything up to KK. 

The doubt is already there for you though  'They are a bogey hand' is your statement and psychologically they are beat before they are played.  The flop is Ah 5 X and you instantly think he has the ace... If the flop had been kh 5 X how would you feel then, i think you need to ask yourself.  Obviously i'm not ruling out the Ace it is a very likely possibility I just think you possibly need to address your emotional relationship with pocket J's...

To answer your question fold or pass - I would probably call...

GL

BTW from an odds perspective it's a lot easier to pass if you raise 3 x BB as you are less committed to the pot when someone with a relatively shortstack calls.  His call basically committed you both to the pot...

he calls half of his chips preflop, he is in on the flop no matter what, and if you are not thinking the same based on his stack size, then you are making his play profitable.
If you fold here they will run you out of town if they are paying attention.

Ja, you're commited to call here.

Deffo Call

He was sticking his chips in whatever hit the flop.

I put my money on a mid pair

If you call surely it's a crying call. I can understand the reasons for calling but what are you ahead of here?

You have to call.

There is nothing wrong with the healthy raise pre-flop.

I would call..but I too dislike J's so not too sure if I would have put that raise in pre..

if he is the only remaining player and hes all in, you're getting 3-1 to call

so call, and then hit your jack on river ;)

Bandit,

I think you're right to be concerned about how you play Jacks.  You say you would fold them in later position to any bet, yet here you are raising up 5xBB in early position with them. That seems a little inconsistent really.

As stated previously 3xBB will likely get you the same answer as the larger bet i.e. a call     Difference being you can get away easier should you get reraised or if an  Ad comes on the flop.

Also to most players 3xBB looks like you have a stronger hand than if you bet bigger from early position.

However now that you've got this far I think that you have to call for the following reasons:-

1. Short stack is always going to stick his last 320 in whatever the flop
2. It's only 320 to call and you have the stack to afford it
3. If you fold here the value of the damage to your table image will be worth more 320 chips.

Its a standard call.  Other guy has put half his stack in preflop, he is pumping the rest in regardless.  I'd be more worried he had me beat if he had checked

You might be getting 3/1, but if you put him on the ace then you’re a little more than a 9/1 dog to improve. So the 3/1 doesn’t come into it here. It’s Does he have it or not, only 1 way to find out now.

Stick em in

Personally with Jacks in EP I’m going to limp call, or limp fold at this early stage

GlasgowBandit, you have a large stack, it's early and he has nothing back so i would call here. I would think i'm behind but i would be curious.

I fundamentally disagree with altering your play to create a table image and Bob Ciaffone says as much in his book 'Improve Your Poker' (good book by the way). If you were to fold here you know that people would try running over you. Great, next time you can call/raise here because the oppo's hand range will be wider.

Just my opinion, i don't think it will sit well with others though.

Thanks for the opinions guys.

I agree with most about the short stack chucking them in no matter what the flop was after he had ca;;ed the pre flop raise. 

Anyway I called he had A 5 .

I should have got rif of the Jacks I hate the damn hand!!!

Why should you have got rid of them?

Because they're a boget hand!  :D

I don't ever think I have wonw hen I have had pocket Jacks.

No No No m8, take JJ against a short stack a5 ALL day

I think you should remove ur emotion from your play, you may find playing JJ with a clear head improves your game

1) There isn't a hand in the game that you would rather play in ep than lp.
2) It's a pass.

I am calling depending on how often I think my read of my opponent is right and for 320 into 980 its a standard call, but what I don't ever get with these questions is how you can call when you believe that he has an ace.

If you genuinely believe that then you can not put in one more chip than the chance that your hand would improve beyond his. In this instance you are approx 10/1 to hit your 2 outer from the flop so the maximum you should pay is 98 chips.

Your opponents play with A5 out of position and his stack amuses me. Praise the lord for these folk.

My question to the original poster HS was how would he feel if the board came K 5 X would he then automatically put the player on a King ...

If he does then it's not down to anything other than the negative perception of 'Pocket Jacks' rather than a read on your opponent, and in the long term you are creating a self styled massive -EV with this thinking.

If the board came K 5 X I wouldn't have hesitated in putting the chips in.  I never took it into consideration that he was playing a King.  My instincs where he limped with a weak ace and hoped to pair it.  I never expected him to have the two pair though. 

I knew as soon as he called pre flop he was lumping it in after the flop no matter what he had. 

My dislike of jacks is well served in that I cans eriouslys ay no matter how I play them they always seem to haunt me.  What I have noticed though is osme times I try and be cute with them and limp in looking for a low flop hoping to get more value.  Since posting this thread I have beend ealt Jacks 4 x and not lost a hand with them.  I have been limping in early position and making it expensive to play in late position if - and this seems to be working for me just now.

Yesterday for example I am dealt JJ on the buttongUTG raise  4 x bb and we have another two callers and I make a pot size raise, I have nearly 3x as much chips as anyone else at the table so I washoping that I would get away with this and force all 3 off the hand UTG called and the other two players fold. 

Theres just short of 2k in chips in the middle flop comes with the J 7 9 then theres a bit of speach play from him in the text box saying he has made a set and he pushed the rest of his chips in.  I let the timer practically time out before calling and all the time he's typing away rapid:

Calll
Calll
Calll

 :D  Sweet I'm thinking I thought maybe he did have a set but I had the an overset.  The muppet shows A 9  :D


I think much of my thinking on the original post came down to instinct.  Gut feeling is a wonderful thing and when your right its great when your wrong its not so great.  I reckon I should go on my instinct more often than not its usually good.

I also agree with some of the posts about my negativity towards Jacks - but this has cost me dearly before and until I win more often with them and get confidence from playing them I am still going to think they are a bogey hand.

Which takes me to my next thread.

Jacks are a good hand, but if they are genuinely a concern for you and are showing a losss in your stats, then it would be wise to treat them like a smaller pair. Play them passively and try to hit sets. If you miss then you can get out cheaply.