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Title: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: NoflopsHomer on June 05, 2006, 11:53:18 PM Pablo is an utter fish and busted my set with a 6 high flush draw, JVL209 is a complete gambler, raising with anything at anytime, he makes quite a bit, but I think he's just very lucky. The reason I only flat-called was because I felt with combined outs, I was probably behind, even though their outs, as shown, clashed.
[Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 1 : ventity.ca has $17 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 2 : bestbesi has $158.50 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 3 : IamRodHull has $174.70 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 4 : Doc Farrell has $89 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 5 : L has $107.50 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 6 : pablo1977 has $124.96 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 7 : JVL209 has $282 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 8 : mrrivercard has $131.50 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : Seat 9 : junior56_1 has $228.75 [Jun 5 22:38:02] : bestbesi is the dealer. [Jun 5 22:38:03] : IamRodHull posted small blind. [Jun 5 22:38:03] : Doc Farrell posted big blind. [Jun 5 22:38:03] : Game [13887] started with 8 players. [Jun 5 22:38:03] : Dealing Hole Cards. [Jun 5 22:38:03] : Seat 3 : IamRodHull has Ks Kc Jc 3d [Jun 5 22:38:06] : Doc Farrell : is that jp? [Jun 5 22:38:07] : L folded. [Jun 5 22:38:10] : pablo1977 called $1 and raised $2.50 [Jun 5 22:38:14] : JVL209 called $3.50 [Jun 5 22:38:15] : mrrivercard folded. [Jun 5 22:38:16] : pablo1977 : no [Jun 5 22:38:19] : ventity.ca folded. [Jun 5 22:38:26] : bestbesi folded. [Jun 5 22:38:28] : IamRodHull called $3 [Jun 5 22:38:29] : Doc Farrell called $2.50 [Jun 5 22:38:30] : Dealing flop. [Jun 5 22:38:30] : Board cards [Qh 2s Kh] [Jun 5 22:38:34] : IamRodHull bet $14 [Jun 5 22:38:37] : Doc Farrell folded. [Jun 5 22:38:46] : pablo1977 : sonn to beskint fish [Jun 5 22:38:50] : pablo1977 called $14 and raised $42 [Jun 5 22:38:52] : JVL209 called $56 [Jun 5 22:38:55] : pablo1977 : ***** 3 kings [Jun 5 22:38:57] : IamRodHull called $42 [Jun 5 22:38:57] : Dealing turn. [Jun 5 22:38:57] : Board cards [Qh 2s Kh Ad] [Jun 5 22:39:00] : IamRodHull checked. [Jun 5 22:39:02] : pablo1977 bet $65.46 and is All-in [Jun 5 22:39:04] : JVL209 called $65.46 and raised $157.04 and is All-in [Jun 5 22:39:08] : pablo1977 : herats [Jun 5 22:39:10] : pablo1977 : herart [Jun 5 22:39:10] : IamRodHull folded. [Jun 5 22:39:11] : Showdown! [Jun 5 22:39:13] : pablo1977 : heart [Jun 5 22:39:13] : Seat 6 : pablo1977 has Js Jh Ts 8h [Jun 5 22:39:13] : Seat 7 : JVL209 has Qc 2h 4h Ah [Jun 5 22:39:17] : Board cards [Qh 2s Kh Ad Ac] [Jun 5 22:39:17] : Seat 7 : JVL209 has Qc 2h 4h Ah [Jun 5 22:39:17] : JVL209 has Full House : Aces full of Queens [Jun 5 22:39:17] : Seat 6 : pablo1977 has Js Jh Ts 8h [Jun 5 22:39:17] : pablo1977 has Straight AKQJT [Jun 5 22:39:17] : JVL209 wins $309.92 with Full House : Aces full of Queens Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: Royal Flush on June 06, 2006, 12:10:01 AM I lump it in on the flop, if the board pairs you kill your action.
I also disagree about JVL, he is a very good PLO player and from what i have seen is the biggest winner in the PLO on Tribeca Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: NoflopsHomer on June 06, 2006, 12:14:56 AM He's completely fearless, I'll give him that, but I've seen him hit so many sick outdraws, it's untrue. This hand is a major example.
Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: ACE2M on June 06, 2006, 12:36:47 AM absolutely you should lump it in on the flop. It seems fairly obvious what kind of hands you are up against so you must make some effort to protect your hand surely?
Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: Royal Flush on June 06, 2006, 12:45:39 AM absolutely you should lump it in on the flop. It seems fairly obvious what kind of hands you are up against so you must make some effort to protect your hand surely? I don't really think its about protection, thats what calling gives you, you draw the blank then ship the turn. I just dont want to scare them if i fill! Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: ACE2M on June 06, 2006, 10:59:11 AM absolutely you should lump it in on the flop. It seems fairly obvious what kind of hands you are up against so you must make some effort to protect your hand surely? I don't really think its about protection, thats what calling gives you, you draw the blank then ship the turn. I just dont want to scare them if i fill! I am not a great omaha player and find that pretty interesting. I do sometimes let a blank come off before firing a big shell but is this something you consistently do? Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: Royal Flush on June 06, 2006, 11:37:31 AM absolutely you should lump it in on the flop. It seems fairly obvious what kind of hands you are up against so you must make some effort to protect your hand surely? I don't really think its about protection, thats what calling gives you, you draw the blank then ship the turn. I just dont want to scare them if i fill! I am not a great omaha player and find that pretty interesting. I do sometimes let a blank come off before firing a big shell but is this something you consistently do? If there is ever a spot to it, this is it. This is exactly the flop that gives HUGE action in omaha, 2 tone board, KQ on there. The other advantage of taking the blank is that QQ will think it is winning and even bottom set will think this! Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: elblondie on June 06, 2006, 11:41:06 AM This is interesting for me because I spent the first 10 years ALWAYS sticking my chips all-in on the flop with top trips.
I think this is the accepted best procedure everywhere apart from the highest level PLO games. However, whilst playing over the years I have studied how players 'win'. There was a guy with 2 names called Dave Moseley in the South and Chris Randall North of Watford Gap He used to generally never raise on the flop, and always re-raise if he found a blank on the turn. This was because he didn't like to 'gamble'. He was undoubtably a huge winner in the big PLO games. I nowadays try and bring a different factor into the equation and let that dictate how I play top trips. How much money have I in front of me? If I get 70% or more in on the flop then I'lll re-raise and stick it in. However if a re-raise will only get 25% of my money in. I'll just smooth call. I hate seeing this situation where you get bet out of the pot on the turn, and then the river pairs up. The problem with this strategy was oulined earlier...basically you don't protect your hand and you let the draws in cheaply. However, I believe this is more than balanced out when a blank comes along on the turn.You have usually disguised your hand. You can often get players to put a lot of money in the pot drawing very thin indeed. Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: ifm on June 06, 2006, 11:44:37 AM I lump it in on the flop, if the board pairs you kill your action. I also disagree about JVL, he is a very good PLO player and from what i have seen is the biggest winner in the PLO on Tribeca Agreed with both, i played a lot with JVL last year in PLO and he is very, very good. I'd say he has the bankroll to gamble a bit at this level because he's been killing it for several years, notable that he hasn't moved to a higher level. Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: Royal Flush on June 06, 2006, 11:48:08 AM I lump it in on the flop, if the board pairs you kill your action. I also disagree about JVL, he is a very good PLO player and from what i have seen is the biggest winner in the PLO on Tribeca Agreed with both, i played a lot with JVL last year in PLO and he is very, very good. I'd say he has the bankroll to gamble a bit at this level because he's been killing it for several years, notable that he hasn't moved to a higher level. He plays all the levels on there, he was playing Mickey Wenick on the 5-10 earlier. He had a couple of good scores in comps on there aswell in the last 2 months, he won the 100k and came 6th a few weeks later in it! Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: ACE2M on June 06, 2006, 11:52:45 AM absolutely you should lump it in on the flop. It seems fairly obvious what kind of hands you are up against so you must make some effort to protect your hand surely? I don't really think its about protection, thats what calling gives you, you draw the blank then ship the turn. I just dont want to scare them if i fill! I am not a great omaha player and find that pretty interesting. I do sometimes let a blank come off before firing a big shell but is this something you consistently do? If there is ever a spot to it, this is it. This is exactly the flop that gives HUGE action in omaha, 2 tone board, KQ on there. The other advantage of taking the blank is that QQ will think it is winning and even bottom set will think this! This is interesting for me because I spent the first 10 years ALWAYS sticking my chips all-in on the flop with top trips. I think this is the accepted best procedure everywhere apart from the highest level PLO games. However, whilst playing over the years I have studied how players 'win'. There was a guy with 2 names called Dave Moseley in the South and Chris Randall North of Watford Gap He used to generally never raise on the flop, and always re-raise if he found a blank on the turn. This was because he didn't like to 'gamble'. He was undoubtably a huge winner in the big PLO games. I nowadays try and bring a different factor into the equation and let that dictate how I play top trips. How much money have I in front of me? If I get 70% or more in on the flop then I'lll re-raise and stick it in. However if a re-raise will only get 25% of my money in. I'll just smooth call. I hate seeing this situation where you get bet out of the pot on the turn, and then the river pairs up. The problem with this strategy was oulined earlier...basically you don't protect your hand and you let the draws in cheaply. However, I believe this is more than balanced out when a blank comes along on the turn.You have usually disguised your hand. You can often get players to put a lot of money in the pot drawing very thin indeed. Very interesting gents, i have never read anyhting about omaha and just considered it automatic to get as much in as possible with top trips on the flop. Will have to think a little deeper about the game me thinks. Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: ifm on June 06, 2006, 11:57:47 AM It's hands like these that made me realise i just don't have the stomach (or bankroll) for online PLO.
Hands can play out exactly as you want them to and go horribly wrong, you get in this situation a lot of times. I much prefer 6 card Omaha these days live. Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: Royal Flush on June 06, 2006, 11:58:33 AM absolutely you should lump it in on the flop. It seems fairly obvious what kind of hands you are up against so you must make some effort to protect your hand surely? I don't really think its about protection, thats what calling gives you, you draw the blank then ship the turn. I just dont want to scare them if i fill! I am not a great omaha player and find that pretty interesting. I do sometimes let a blank come off before firing a big shell but is this something you consistently do? If there is ever a spot to it, this is it. This is exactly the flop that gives HUGE action in omaha, 2 tone board, KQ on there. The other advantage of taking the blank is that QQ will think it is winning and even bottom set will think this! This is interesting for me because I spent the first 10 years ALWAYS sticking my chips all-in on the flop with top trips. I think this is the accepted best procedure everywhere apart from the highest level PLO games. However, whilst playing over the years I have studied how players 'win'. There was a guy with 2 names called Dave Moseley in the South and Chris Randall North of Watford Gap He used to generally never raise on the flop, and always re-raise if he found a blank on the turn. This was because he didn't like to 'gamble'. He was undoubtably a huge winner in the big PLO games. I nowadays try and bring a different factor into the equation and let that dictate how I play top trips. How much money have I in front of me? If I get 70% or more in on the flop then I'lll re-raise and stick it in. However if a re-raise will only get 25% of my money in. I'll just smooth call. I hate seeing this situation where you get bet out of the pot on the turn, and then the river pairs up. The problem with this strategy was oulined earlier...basically you don't protect your hand and you let the draws in cheaply. However, I believe this is more than balanced out when a blank comes along on the turn.You have usually disguised your hand. You can often get players to put a lot of money in the pot drawing very thin indeed. Very interesting gents, i have never read anyhting about omaha and just considered it automatic to get as much in as possible with top trips on the flop. Will have to think a little deeper about the game me thinks. Like Dave said its more the case higher up you go, where people will fold a set of queens if you re-raise the flop. You will also people calling with MONSTER draws rather than pushing just to save the chips if the board pairs on the turn. Ben Grundy put a few examples of that on his blog, which is the best place to go if you want to learn more about the dynamics of Omaha. Title: Re: Should I have re-raised on the flop? Omaha Hand Post by: Junior Senior on June 06, 2006, 02:27:09 PM very interesting - and a great take on things by DC. I have played a fair amount of PLO on line and i deffo would lump the lot in on the flop here. You got to make the draws pay to hit! - it was pretty obvious what they both likely had.
The problem with smooth calling and seeing the turn is when the obvious draws get filled and they bet into you. - now YOU have the problem. - if you are deep stacked and can get away from the hand then fair enough but in this particular hand and with the stacks being played - i see no other option than to lump it all in with the best of it on the flop. - Even if a blank comes on the turn, have you got enough in your stack to prevent getting called twice on the turn? - NO |