blonde poker forum

100 player tourney at Nottingham, down to last 3 tables. I have 14000chips which is a little off the pace but stlll in touch.
SB 800
BB 1600
pass
pass
me, I have AJ. 1st mistake is I think we're still on 600/1200 so I raise to 3000 (2.5xBB) to see where I am.
pass
pass
very strong player calls 3000
while button is thinking caller says"hang on thats an under raise. it's 800/1600. we have to take 1400 each back."
now I think my intention has been made clear and I should put 200 more in rather than take change but because this strong players has been willing to call the raise, then said this I decide I'm happy to limp with him.
Button pass
SB pass
BB check

flop Ah,6s,3h. a decent flop for me so I decide I'm going to try and get them all in some how.
BB check.
I decide if I check player to my left is more likely than not to bet and, assuming BB doesn't beat me to the all-in I'm going to RR hte lot. unfortunately caller checks too. I decide I'm pretty much betting the pot regardless of what turn is.
turn 6h. a danger card but my mind is made up. I think BB checks so I bet 5000 but BB puts 1600 in at the same time. I've misunderstood his intentions and he's minimum bet it. I apologise but say ok, raise to 5000. player on left passes, BB calls
river is an off suit 10 giving a board of Ah,6s,3h,6h,10c and BB come right out and bets all in, roughly same chips as me.
because of pre-flop string bet / limp he could have  6,x / A,10 / two hearts / or any other two cards for that matter.
because of three main mistakes; the underraise, checking the flop and not making my raise on the turn all in i ended up passing what, on relflection was probably the best hand.

I was left with 7400 which was still a playable stack but I never fully recovered and went out 13th getting only slightly more than my money back.

not happy with myself :'(.

i think the raise should of stood and you should of added to the pot rather than take out. im sure i read in rob yongs vegas diary that somebody underaised and they were made to make up the minimum raise.

that's my understanding too, you should have made up the minimum raise...i would have construed your flat caller's insistence on taking the chips back as weakness, called for a ruling, made him stick 3200 in and then bet the flop regardless, putting him to the test

and as you point out, the pass on the end was marginal!

I think the problem came from the fact that you just said "Three" and not "Raise", therefore they didn't take it as one. Very harsh though as it was pretty clear what you were doing. Shame it was the dealers BB.

How it works in my cardroom is, if the raise is less than half the original bet, then they will be returned the bet and it will be deemed a call. If the  raise is over half the original bet, but less than a minimum raise, then they have 2 options.
1st Option is to make the raise up to the minimum raise.
2nd Option is to forfiet the under raise to the pot and deem it as a call.

Open to debate....

if the player made  clear he wanted to raise and then put in an under raise, then he has to raise the minimum and the caller has to call the minimum raise, ur both quite right dan and tight end

First mistake easy one to make- it shouldve stood but it didn't, bad ruling but thems the breaks.
2nd mistake you definately shouldve bet the flop to define your hand, do not trap check without having a real hand- Top pair weakish kicker is not a trapping hand.
3rd mistake on the turn the 1200 screams of a weak lead- ie trap. The fact he called the 5000 reraise should tell you that you are already beat in the hand. The fold on the river is a nobrainer really. The 3rd mistake is the worst of the 3 as you really have to be observant to have any success in the game and you shouldve been able to get away on the turn without putting another penny in the pot. All of us have acted out of turn at some stage but you need to learn from this mistake and not carried away with weak top pairs, most players at this level bet when they have beat.

dead right, that's why I'm so annoyed at myself. If I'd made the correct raise I wanted to preflop of 2.5xBB (4000) I would have one caller to my left and BB may well have folded. I wouldn't have been tempted to attempt a check raise with a marginal hand like AJ and would have just bet the flop and picked up a 10k pot. once BB has minimum bet the turn and called my raise I know I've let the guy beat me, either with a raggy flush or a lone 6. the pass itself on the river is a no brainer but because it's self inflicted the temptation was to stick it in and go home. fortunately the one decent thing I did was hold on to my last few thousand and went a few more rounds. I actually went out holding a full house, beaten by quads but thats another story.

and I agree I think the ruling was I should have put the extra 200 in and if I'd asked for Rob to come over I'm sure he'd have agreed, however, I was wary of the player calling my raise. thought it might be in my favour to let it go. I don't like being out of position to strong players with AJ

There is no such thing as a mistake if you learn from it, just make sure you dont do it again mate. If you are going to play rag aces (AJ is a rag ace btw) out of position play them aggresively and make sure you a) raise properly preflop and b) follow through by firing at least one other shell at it. If you are wanting to play AJ you need to play it like a lion not a mouse.

if you were happy to let the raise go because you were worried about the strength of your hand why did you still go and raise on the turn, like ariston said you could smell a rat. if you had bet the flop and have got called or raised then you would probably have got away from it a little cheaper

I think rag ace is a bit strong but I'm not one of those players who see AJ as a big hand.

I wasn't sure until the BB called my 5000 that I was in trouble. the 1600 bet didn't mean I was definitely beat. I didn't think a call was an option because I'd still be none the wiser. I had to find out where i was in the hand (like I should have done in either/both the previous rounds) Ithibnk of all the mistakes the check on the flop was the worst. I could have made up for my pre flop cock up with an all in move on the flop.

The other bad call in my opinion is, although it was an under raise, action had passed 2 players before this was noticed. Therefore your under raise has made 2 people act. So this must stand!

Yeah i won't add to pointing out the mistakes you made, you realise what they are and that is the important learning process. I actually called Rob over cos someone under raised on my table (was the only one who knew what an under raise was), Rob ruled cos he had try to go 350 with 200 that he had to put an extra 150, yet the newbie had clearly announced an intention to raise.
As for my night well my first live game where i didn't win one hand all very furstrating.At least you got some money Adam. How did you get on Phil any joy?

Wouldn't that make it 350 with 350 and thus not and underraise?

I didn't win a hand all night either, still had an enjoyable table and it was a good laugh.

Met Adam in the lift, nice to meet you btw, but didn't really say much as I needed a coffee and some food to wake me up a bit.

what were you saying last saturday about AJ players being a good player's bread and butter again?
[ul tho' - but i don't agree on u being glad to get a way with a call, u should've insisted it was a raise to show strength - surely. U can find out where ur later if ur that worried by mysterious player x]

Sorry bongo to clarify under the gun raises to 350 and mp player puts 350 in with 200 more. So he should raise a min of 700 total (350 with 350 more)

Surely putting in 150 extra (as per the ruling)  makes it to 700. 350 + 200 + 150 = 700.

Anyway the minimum raise would be less than 350 in that situation:

He has raised to 350, so his raise is 350 - BB (ie 350 minus the big blind).

The min raise would then be that amount - so if BB is 50 he could make it to 650, 100/600.

Sorry Bongo, I am at a loss?????
What has the Big Blind got to do with the price of fish?
If it was 350 for him/her to call then the minimum raise is 350. Although there are some circumstances where this is not the case.
I understood the first post of Longy but it seems a simple situation has been blown up. :-\
It was 350 to call and he announced raise and put 550 in the pot (under raise of 200) as he announced raise then the 200 must be made up to the minimum raise of 350. Ruling was correct and another 150 was added....whats the problem? ::)