blonde poker forum

I'm finding my game has changed significantly since I last played.... I'd appriciate comments on this hand:

PokerStars Game #5460141247: Tournament #27578529, $1.50+$0.25 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/07/05 - 06:06:41 (ET)
Table '27578529 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: bigbombmaker (1415 in chips)
Seat 3: jeanbale (1840 in chips)
Seat 4: tirewizard (1980 in chips)
Seat 5: realdead$$ (1980 in chips)
Seat 6: Claire22 (1250 in chips)
Seat 8: mikkyT (1755 in chips)
Seat 9: chops - ls1 (4740 in chips)
jeanbale: posts small blind 25
tirewizard: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mikkyT [Kc Ks]
realdead$$: calls 50
Claire22: folds
mikkyT: raises 100 to 150
chops - ls1: folds
bigbombmaker: folds
jeanbale: folds
tirewizard: calls 100
realdead$$: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [6d Js Ad]
tirewizard: bets 200
realdead$$: calls 200
mikkyT: folds
*** TURN *** [6d Js Ad] [As]
tirewizard: checks
realdead$$: checks
*** RIVER *** [6d Js Ad As] [Qd]
tirewizard: bets 350
realdead$$: calls 350
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tirewizard: shows [Qh Jc] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
realdead$$: shows [Tc Qs] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
tirewizard collected 788 from pot
realdead$$ collected 787 from pot
mikkyT said, "i folded KK"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1575 | Rake 0
Board [6d Js Ad As Qd]
Seat 1: bigbombmaker (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jeanbale (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: tirewizard (big blind) showed [Qh Jc] and won (788) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 5: realdead$$ showed [Tc Qs] and won (787) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 6: Claire22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: mikkyT folded on the Flop
Seat 9: chops - ls1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I know its only a $1.50 tourney but I was trying not to think of that.

correct fold IMO

I woulda raised more preflop once someone had limped.

Whats the question?

Should you fold an underpair if there is a bet and a call infront, if so, then yes.

Yeah had to fold I guess, but I'd have raised more preflop too.  At 50 for the BB  to scare people off you really need to be sticking in at least 5xBB imo, otherwise you get all sorts of limpers that you don't want.

Don't tell them what you had either, if anyone wants to see what cards I'm holding, there is only one way to find out.

why would you want to scare people off though?

Because with KK you can be beaten by any caller with Ace rag which you certainly don't want.  Then it's all to easy to get beaten by two pair, flushes, straghts etc etc.  I also do the same with AA.  Poker is a game of 5 cards not 2 and it's too easy to crack aces/king, especially if you don't help yourself by betting weakly.  I adopted this attitude after having aces cracked once too many times.

The only time I really slow play Aces or Kings is heads up but other than that, I just want to take the pot asap.

You want to make a make a decent raise so that if an ace comes down you can be fairly sure you're behind and get out cheaply. You are raising to narrow the range of hands your opponent is likely to hold.

 ;iagree;

I didnt want to scare anyone off, because I had just won the last 2 hands either on the flop or preflop with little profits. So I slow played the kings with a small raise, and then didnt like the flop. The table was full of fish, but holding the ace was the most likely for at least one of them, especially after the call from mateyboy2.

Guess I'm second guessing myself too much trying to get into the swing of things.

Just because they both had mince, doesn't mean the flop pass was a bad play.

surely the raise made here was enough to scare off Ace rag though?  I don't think an extra couple of blinds is going to be enough to get rid of AK, AQ, AJ, and you don't want to scare off all the other hands you're beating either.  KK isn't a hand I just want to pick up blinds/limps with (and chances are an Ace won't come on the flop anyhow)

I would have played it exactly the same Mikky

It wont get rid of AJ or above but it will get rid of the majority of lesser hands - like the QJ off suit for example.    I'd rather just get the chips in and see who really wants to play the hand.

That's just the way I'd have played it anyway. 

I'm probably going to show my ignorance now, but I don't understand why you would want to get rid of QJ off suit when you are holding KK?

In case the flop gives him a straight, trips, two pair or a flush.  Holding a pocket pair, I can only hit trips and be pretty safe.  If a pair comes on the flop, I could be losing out to trips.  Also, if an ace turns up, with KK I'm probably behind.   Imagine letting a hand like  Ad  6c get in cheaply and then an ace and a 6 turn up on the old flop - disaster!

I'd just rather get my chips in there.  Pocket aces are a bit different to me, but I don't usually slow play them.

I am with you Claw.

The amount of times i see QJ stack off on a J72 board to my KK is amazing, why on earth do i want him not doing this!

Yes, but you would rather play K-K against one opponent and be fairly sure where you stood all hand.

If your raise is small and your oppos know that you do that with monsters (i.e. it is an 'i want action' bet) it is correct for them to call based on implied odds. To put it another way, if someone had called you with a small pocket pair, flopped a set and the ace wasn't on the board. How easy would it have been for you to fold. You probably would have given them your whole stack, so for both the limper and the BB they have 1 - 16 implied odds on a 1 - 7 shot. By increasing your preflop raise by just one BB their implied odds are cut to 1 - 9.66. Hence the correct play pre flop was to raise to 5*BB (250).

The odds of flopping two pair are 1 - 8 i think, hence i used a set as an example.

It's actually 49-1, that may explain your rather protective play.

Implied odds are great, reverse implied odds are better!! You never had KK, seen the flop come 622 and got 77 to stack off?

Yup and i didn't realise it was 49-1. Thanks.

I'd raise more preflop as well, but not because I want to get hands to fold, just to get them to put more money in the pot, which they are likely to do. If people are willing to put 150 in the pot, then its pretty likely they are gonna apply the fukk it principle and put the extra 100 in there.. and I think the point that Supa is trying to make, is that you would rather make it 200 more and have 2 callers, rather then make it 100 more, and have 4 callers.. as the money going into the pot is the same, but you figure to win the pot much more often against 2 people than 4, and if your stack does get in the middle post-flop, your hand is much more likely to be good vs 2 pre flop callers then vs 4. If that is the point he is trying to make, I would tend to agree

Naturally if you had the choice between 2 callers and 4 callers for 200 a time, you most likely should take the latter, but if its a choice of 200 2 ways or 100 4 ways, you should probably prefer the former, especially if its the case that you are going to get your stack in on any non-ace flop, which is generally the case.

Just my opinion but I would reraise.

Make sure they really have the Ace before you fold your beautifull kings.

It's the one thing I actually learned from listening to Phil's little speeches on pokernight..."Ask the question". 9 out of ten people would fold to your re-raise...1 you raised pre-flop....therefore it's not unlikeley you have an Ace. 2 You probably have a half decent kicker...(you don't raise with Ace 4..unless your table image sucks).

they would therefore really need to have the Ace (or a set) or have stones larges then an elephants to either call or raise you.

like I said..just my opinion..but I have found an awfull lot of people fold when I re-raise them in a situation like this.