blonde poker forum

I think this is going to make me unpopular but here I go anyway.

Many have asked me whether or not I am going to play the HORSE event tomorrow but I have answered with a very definitive NO and for several reasons.

Depsite really wanting to play the event I am disgusted by the fact that this has primarily been introduced to appease some of the higher profile players on the consultation panel at The WSOP.

This imho is disgraceful.

Whilst I have no direct opposition to the (re)introduction of a HORSE event (and actually actively personally want and support mixed game events) there should have been something for the ordinary player and as such they should also have had (say) a $5000 event too.

As a stand alone $50k event it is way too elitist and overshadows the main $10k no limit event and if that wasn't bad enough the organizers are taking out 4% ie they are taking out $2k for every $50k entrant in the prize pool. Call me mean/stingy or whatever but there's NO WAY I AM PAYING THAT MUCH for the privelige of playing in a $50k buy in event.

I do not care what anyone says about a HORSE event being a fairer test of skill it is not THE main event at this series and it will probably also put pressure on the main event buy in being raised in future years (but that's another story best left for another thread as there are several pros and cons to raising the entry fee).

Despite DN claining Jeffrey Pollack will be good for the Poker players he is still a Harrah's employee and as such his primary task is to protect and promote the Harrah's and WSOP image as thats why a PR man / Spin Doctor has been employed and regardless his role is in many ways contradictory to the interests of the players.

I would openly challenge him to answer some of the following points and am going to try and get him to appear on The Circuit and/or publicly where he can answer directly to ordinary poker players whom I feel are being ignored and treated very badly by Harrahs'.

Firstly as a European I feel we are being victimised. The Rio/Harrahs's/WSOP seem to ignore us despite our constituting a significant proportion of players. The Bellagio applies and gets ITIN numbers for us whenever we cash and do not withold if you produce a passport from a tax treaty country.

More generally, however, there are many other things that they have continued to get wrong at this years WSOP.

Admittedly there are a few slight improvements but as far as I'm concerned they all seem to be token gestures and been way to few for my liking although of course they are welcomed.

Absolutely NOTHING that has been introduced has cost the organizers ANYTHING and I want to see some good faith on their parts.

BTW before anyone replies by saying that we the players are to blame as we constantly keep turning up in our thousands to play casuing events to be oversold I appreciate and accept the point but feel the higher profile players should make a stand and refuse to play in select events such as the HORSE.

Anyway back to my main gripes.

I want to know why ABSOLUTELY NONE of the money from ESPN/Milwaukee Light/Party Poker and any other sponsors is coming back to the players. I think they should at least give us some kick backs in the form of juice free tournaments.

I also want to know why they say they will close out events and then make us play 11 handed and have hundreds of alternates who get introduced to the events several levels into play.

Why are there takeout percentages listed on the tournament schedules without any clarification/breakdown as to whether any of that juice goes to dealers etc etc.

Why does it cost less to get a room at Rio when walking in off the street than by booking the poker rate as a player?

Why are photographs of the players allowed to be taken and sold off for commercial profit by people such as Image Masters?

This years tournament of champions comprised 27 players. 3 were invited by Pepsi and 3 by Party Poker. I want a proper explanation about why exemptions are being permitted without other bracelt winners getting due consideration for their performances. It strikes me that the tournament of champions is regressing back to it's original format where ten players of the organizers choice are invited to play almost entriely regardless of merit but merely on their profile.

Tomorrow rather than playing I intend to spend the day with fellow players discussing a course of action to try and get definite answers from the organizers and challenge them to open debate and discussion.

I do not really want this thread to be a discussion thread. I have written it merely to try and give an idea of how I feel about a few issues (there are a LOT more).

What I would appreciate, however, are your views ie you the ordinary grass roots players on what questions you would like raised and answered.

So if you have any questions please post them here.

I understand that you may not agree with my points and have counter arguments and comments about how corporations are expected to make profits but I DO NOT WANT THOSE.

If you post your questions and concerns here then I am going to go out of my way to get them addressed by The WSOP from those in high positions and then report back.

I am fed up of feeling like I am being unfairly treated, taken for granted and finacially abused.

I shall be posting this on numerous forums but if you could help by forwarding any concerns or questions that any of you may have I will collate them and try and obtain answers.

Your assitance with this would be greatly appreciated.

in my opinion,the horse event is taking the shine of the main event,as you said you will only get the high profile players to enter this along with a few millionaire basketball team coaches ect ect.but i think the high profile players want this, as to in there eyes whoever wins it will be the best player in the world 2006,as i think now with the wsop main event $10,000 the pros,  all seem to think that its a crapshoot to win it coz of so many runners.

I personally think the main event buy should be raised to say $25k. It is supposed to be a top exclusive event, any tom dick and harry can enter at the moment. Of course it could be argued that it doesn't give the average punter a chance, but its supposed to be the top event therefore the average punter shouldn't be in there anyway and if there are good enough they will get in via satellites anyway.

The main event is all too mainstream is you ask me.

A detailed and lucid set of questions from Harry.

Of course he, and us, already know the answer to most of these questions - money. For years the WSOP was a gathering of poker players in Las Vegas who would get together each year and play some poker. A small, select audience would show an interest.

Then the internet happened, player numbers (and prize money) shot through the roof. A Tennessee accountant entered an internet tournament for $9 and won $2.5m. Suddenly it was a big thing capable of generating its own money through advertising, sponsorship and TV rights. What's more, player numbers and attention continues to grow every year despite none of this extra money filtering down to the players.

The WSOP is now a corporate event and corporations exist purely to make money for themselves. That is their raison d'etre. Their thinking would be 'it keeps growing, therefore the stone is not dry yet - let's keep squeezing'.

One thing which Harry didn't mention is the sorry state of the live updates this year. Cardplayer paid money for the exclusive rights to report from the tables. The result of this expense is them cutting down on the actual coverage - it's worse than last year. Updates are sporadic and, even worse, wrong. All because most of the budget went on acquiring the rights. Harrah's saw another piece of the family silver they could sell off to the highest bidder, so they did.

The absolute biggest names would continue to play in every event because for them it's a branding exercise. It gets their name and face on the TV, which gets the sponsors, which gets their name on a computer game or a TV show. The internet muppets (of which I am one) will continue to show up because, hey, I get to go to Vegas for $15. The ones who really get it in the neck are the jobbing professionals, who make their living from the game, but incur the full expense of doing so.

From Harrah's point of view, who cares about these pros? They only want a) the star names who'll attract the TV coverage and b) the internet people who will swell the prize pool and maybe even win it, thus instigating another Moneymaker Effect.

For the good of poker Harrah's shouldn't be able to suck the players dry. Unfortunately, if player numbers keep increasing, there's no incentive for them not to do so - corporations don't have consciences.

i agree with all that's been said,
it's enough to make you go on tilt if you sit down & think about it.

i think players should stop revealing their hole cards on the TV table as a form of protest...get me on a final & i'll take the lead  /:-|

fair play to harry for trying to get some momentum going with regard to raising those questions.

I agree, this was once the tournament where the best players in the world would battle out to see who is the best, now anyone can go. The internet sites are giving away too many seats for the event imo. there should be a limit on how many people can enter aswell, otherwise its just going to get insane.

The HORSE event is steep, it should be the same as the main event.

Good luck Harry, give the WSOP a piece of your mind

Harry thanks for posting this


If you have the time I would like to hear your views on the pros and cons of lifting the Main Event buy in, on another thread as you suggest.

The ITIN issue really annoys me - I can't understand why the Bellagio can payout in full and Harrahs won't - please get an explanation.

I agree on some point and disagree on others.

I feel the main event should be a mixed game and $50k is about right.

Sadly though as you say Harrah's are just milking it, $2k fecking juice! Thats a joke. They make millions on the sponsors all they have to do is make it rake free, they dont need to add money, just make it rake free, its fair they do well out of it but they do not need to be robbing the players!

According to Paul Phillips' blog, there was only 37 entries when he signed up today.

I would like to know why there is so little variation in the satellites.

As Simon Trumper pointed out, every satellite between $125 and $325 has more or less the same clock and structure.

At $325 a pop (almost a third of some WSOP event buy ins) they're not really the type of satellite value I am after.

Good post Harry. I think there are probably a few distinct issues to be debated.

1. The biggest is that Harrahs are absolutely milking the entire event for all it is worth. As you say, with all the sponsorship they are getting, taking a 4% juice and overcharging for rooms is a joke. The Orleans festival is apparently giving much better service than Rio at present.

I've also seen suggestions on other sites that some of the deductions which are supposed to go into the dealer pool allegedly got 'redirected' last year.

2. The ITIN issue seems to be an absolute joke. Why one rule for Bellagio, and another for Rio? It sounds like they just can't be bothered sorting it out.

3. The HORSE buyin at $50,000 is actually very closely equated to a $10,000 buyin in 1970 - adjusted for inflation. But I agree it would be better to have a second event at a much smaller buy-in.

Generally Harrahs have got a captive audience. It's a bit like supporting your childhood football team. You won't stop playing the WSOP because you don't like the organisers, just the same as you can't stop supporting your football team just because the board are idiots. It's an emotional attachment and they are exploiting it.

I really like Julian's idea about a hole card boycott - but not sure if the tourney T&Cs demand you reveal your cards on the TV table? Worthy of investigation I think.

Last night and for the last few days they have been running $5000 buy in single table sit n go's to qualify for this event and then $1040 rebuy tourney for the event which produced just 1 seat.

I agree that the rake is huge.  Have to say though that I found when I chopped my side event tourney, they were most helpful in getting me my ITIN number and paying me on it straight away with no hassles and tax free.  It took them about 45 mins to sort it all out but absolutely fantastic customer service, so much so I tipped the co-ordinator for helping it go smoothly.  His name is Michael if you can get him to sort out paperwork in the WSOP area.

What has annoyed me is that when you win a sit and go, they pay you in tournament chips instead of cash , but the weirdest part is that you can only use the tournament chips for $500 buy in or more , so if you want to play another $225 sit and go its cash only.  How bad is that!!!  Just another way of them getting you to play the events they want you to.

I'm quite glad that Mr C  bought my chips bless his cotton socks

Other than that I'm finding things pretty well run, other than the erratic air conditioning which is normally on freeze mode and bloody freezing  .  BRING JUMPERS cos you will need them

I am sitting here with Harry in Vegas, here are my issues!!

1) Tournaments of champions, WHAT A JOKE!
2) Coverage by the PAID media outlet, joke!
3) Help for foreign players, joke
4) Rake , joke

WSOP is a basic joke

Well the 1k events you only get 1k chips, thats even worse!







Does that mean you are not playing any more events Brian?

Yeah agreed, but at least you get a 1 hour clock - not 15 or 20 mins, plus a structure that doesn't skip levels.

Thought it was hour and a half?

it means that Harry and myself are going to join forces and try to express our dissatisfaction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I will give back the bracelet????????????????

dont do it baby! just dont do it!!

Hi Harry

I think it's fair to start a response to this thread by acknowledging that the WSOP brand is the single most important brand in poker today, and that whether we like or dislike corporate America, there can be little doubt that Harrahs has been a big part of bringing the WSOP brand, and live tournament poker, into the mainstream - in a way that Binions, for all of its history, would have been unable to do.

Right now as you rightly say, the weight of benefit is clearly directed heavily in Harrahs favour, but I would suggest that once the players get their stable in order, then the future under Harrahs could look very bright indeed.

The players bring an incredible amount to the table:-

1) The prize pool.

2) The justification for the involvement of the major advertisers and ESPN.

3) A captive audience for those major advertisers.

4) Essential revenue for Las Vegas - The Airlines / McCarran / The Hotels / Restaurants / Shops / Cabs etc etc.

5) Word of mouth promotion of Las Vegas, in addition to the huge media promotion that the city gets throughout the major part of the tourist season.

6) I wouldn't know where to start in terms of the value of players to the online organisations, but needless to say it is astronomical.

But I would pose my question to you as opposed to Harrahs.  Does Jesse Jones have the gravitas and support to negotiate an appropriate deal for the players?  In my opinion, therein lies the answer to all of your questions.

Good luck with the rest of the series Harry and if you get your 30 minutes with Harrahs, I hope it is with the right people, and that they listen to you.  There is an awful lot to be said for a passionate arguement, and that is what I read in your initial post.

Regards,

Des.

Well the 1k events you only get 1k chips, thats even worse!




Actually we got 1500 chips for a 1 k event as I believe they have changed
it for all 1k events now

I didint know that, still not a lot of play!

For everyone's information Jeffrey Pollack has invited me to meet with him along with other players to discuss our concerns.

Current intentions are to collate all the questions raised and then to arrange a meeting with Jeffrey Pollack to discuss them.

So every one please send questions in rather than discuss the points raised.

Below is Jeffrey Pollack's response in The Hendon Mob Forum:

==============================================

Jeffrey Pollack here...

It concerns me that you feel as though you are "being unfairly treated, taken for granted, and financially abused." My top priority is delivering outstanding customer satisfaction for our guests and we are obviously failing with you.

So, I am more than happy to meet with you in person to hear your concerns and suggestions, convey our intentions and goals, and talk through any topic you like. If you know of other players who are unhappy, please feel free to invite them.

You can reach me directly on jplt@harrahs.com to set some time to meet.

I appreciate and value your passion for the World Series of Poker, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Best,

Jeffrey

============================================

and my reply...

Your invitation is gratefully received and accepted.

More details to follow via private e-mail.

imho

                         H  ...       HIGH
                         O  ...       ORGANISED
                         R  ...       ROLLERS
                         S  ...       SPONSORED
                         E  ...       EVENT



    MAYBEE THIS IS WHAT IT STANDS FOR?????????????

For everyone's information Jeffrey Pollack has invited me to meet with him along with other players to discuss our concerns.

Current intentions are to collate all the questions raised and then to arrange a meeting with Jeffrey Pollack to discuss them.

So every one please send questions in rather than discuss the points raised.

Below is Jeffrey Pollack's response in The Hendon Mob Forum:

==============================================

Jeffrey Pollack here...

It concerns me that you feel as though you are "being unfairly treated, taken for granted, and financially abused." My top priority is delivering outstanding customer satisfaction for our guests and we are obviously failing with you.

So, I am more than happy to meet with you in person to hear your concerns and suggestions, convey our intentions and goals, and talk through any topic you like. If you know of other players who are unhappy, please feel free to invite them.

You can reach me directly on jplt@harrahs.com to set some time to meet.

I appreciate and value your passion for the World Series of Poker, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Best,

Jeffrey

============================================

and my reply...

Your invitation is gratefully received and accepted.

More details to follow via private e-mail.

harry,

i think you would be a great representative.. as I believe you would have ALL the players best interests at heart, and not just do what is best for the alleged pros.

Hope the interview is of some benefit

Gl luck in your final table of the $2,500 short handed event.

Dont bother showing your cards to the hole cameras - they have not "paid" to see them.

I'm just an internet player; I've never been to the World Series and so I can't speak about the issue of juice on these events (after all, every freezeout I play online is raked 10% or thereabouts!), but as a fan of the game and an avid viewer of TV programs, I can speak about something that is yet another disturbing trend in the World Series lately, the proliferation of Hold'Em over other poker variations.

In particular, I thought that the $50k HORSE was a great idea when I first heard about it - but of course, it really only makes sense if you then scale up the price tags of some of the other tournaments as well. I assumed that this event was there to 'test the waters' of a higher buy-in event, something more in line with what the $10k price tag of the main event was supposed to be, back in the 1970s. If all went smoothly, there could then be a few more higher buy-in events next year as well, and perhaps a raised-entry price on the Main Event, to bring it in line.

However, that surely doesn't mean that they should completely neglect the variety of events at the lower end of things. Why not have a $5k HORSE as well?

Question: In fact, why is there less variety in this year's selection of events, than ever before?

Looking at this somewhat methodically, I went back and had a look at the schedules for the last few years, starting with 2001, to see how things have changed:

2001:

25 events total

Holdem: 10 events, including 5 No Limit events (40%)
Omaha variations: 6 events (24%)
Stud variations: 6 events (24%)
Draw variations: 2 events (8%)
Mixed Games: 1 event (4%)

Now check 2003, the first 'internet' year:

33 events total

Holdem: 15 events, including 6 No Limit events (46%)
Omaha variations: 7 events (21%)
Stud variations: 5 events (15%)
Draw variations: 2 events (6%)
Mixed Games: 4 events (12%)


It was an unusually good year for mixed events, normally there's just one (The Ladies event in 2003, for example, was a mixed event - half stud, half hold'em). The following year, 2004, had just one mixed event - and in 2005 mixed events were scrapped altogether.

2005, Harrah's have taken over:

39 events total

Holdem: 26 events, including 16 No Limit events (67%)
Omaha variations: 7 events (18%)
Stud variations: 5 events (13%)
Draw variations: 1 event (2%)
Mixed Games: 0 events

A huge hike in the number of Hold'Em games, compared with other forms, and in particular a really big hike in No Limit Hold'Em events!

Now, 2006:

39 events total

Holdem: 28 events, including 19 No Limit events (72%)
Omaha variations: 5 events - [although an extra event seems to have been added]
Stud variations: 4 events
Draw variations: 1 event
Mixed Games: 1 event

================

It's a disturbing trend, for people who like to see variety. People have already remarked upon the WSOP becoming the 'World Series of Hold'Em'; perhaps people won't miss the ace-to-five lowball tourney, but to have three quarters of the games being Hold'Em strikes me as a waste of a good opportunity.

When I was in Vegas, last month, I heard one well known Pro talk wistfully of the SHOE tournaments he used to play in, amongst other laments. This was also the first time I'd heard that the HORSE tournament at this year's Series would have a final table of No Limit Hold'Em, ostensibly because ESPN feared the viewers at home would not be able to follow the action of a game like HORSE.

I was utterly gobsmacked.

When I heard about the $50K HORSE for the first time, I'd really been looking forward to it - mainly because I knew that the elevated price tag would create a glittering field of the 'big names', and that's an exciting prospect to a poker fan.

The point is, that I can see these guys play Hold'Em any time; our screens are saturated with it. There's only so many times I can watch A-K vs Q-Q before I go, "Yeah, well, so what?" and with the HORSE tournament I was looking forward to something different.

At this point I have to hope - probably in vain - that cameras captured some of the action from the first two days. If ESPN had been smart, they'd have had 'featured tables' throughout the tournament, just as they do for the Main Event. I hope they did, but something tells me they're only going to show the final table.

Even if they hadn't wanted to show the Day One and Day Two footage as part of their regular broadcast, (so as not to alienate the casual viewer who would obviously be put off by the complexity of the play, switching from one variation to another, and switch off in their droves - God forbid ESPN should actually give this thing a chance!) they could have sold it as a DVD or something, for those of us who want to see HORSE and not Hold'Em.

To me, it seems a great waste of a real opportunity.

 ;iagree; :goodpost:


The WSOP final tables on TV that aren't Hold'Em are a godsend frankly...

There are 44 official events this year as there are 5x$1000 n/l holdem event taking place alongside the main event.

Just to boost your hold'em percentage a bit higher!!