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Just sitting here in a hotel room watching CNN, and the god/allah/jehovah awful news coming in from the middle east, about the escalation in violence between Isreal and the Lebannon.

I just wonder  at what point , the "supreme being" that oversees what we have created steps in and says "enough - you have made a total arse of this planet, and I'm taking it back".

Honestly, what kind of people are we ?


sorry to get all serious there...

Im with you on this.

It's no wonder sooooo many films have us (the human race) destroying life on this planet - personally, I think it is a matter of WHEN no IF!!

I truely pitty future generations

I've realized that humans are not mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but humans do not. We move to an area... and we multiply... until every natural resource is consumed. The only way we can then survive is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is?

A virus. Humans beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet...

Not correct. Every other creature on the planet multiplies to the fullest extent that the environment will allow, just like we do. However we have evolved to an extent where we can alter the environment more than any other creature which has ever lived, hence a greater range of the natural resources are available for us to use.

If dinosaurs had invented chainsaws and combustion engines they'd have messed up the planet just as much as us.

and you nicked that off The Matrix anyway!  ;goodvevil;

Shhhhhhh I want reactions like AndrewT  ;goodvevil;

you forgot about the locusts

i'm freaked out to, we are fast arriving at the edge of a very high precipice and i for one am bricking it for fear of whats going to happen when we topple over the edge, some sort of mass re ordering of world order seems on the cards.

He won't do that as he's too busy telling both sides to kill each other :D

I look at it from the other perspective. when will people realise there is no supreme being anymore than there's a toothfairy or a Santa Claus and stop behaving badly in 'his' name.

Wow, bit of a controversial post Adam (what a shock lol) it's certainly far too early in the morning to start a faith debate, but if you are expecting people to stop believing in whatever higher power they feel connected to, I think you may be waiting a while (understatement of the year there) I agree that religion is blamed for more wars than any other influence, but thinking that if the World stopped having faith would could create a utopia, is naive in the extreme.

I didnt say a world without faith would be utopia. there are plenty of other things we'd fall out over, it'd just be one less thing. I begrudge noone there right to believe in a big white bearded dude looking down from a cloud, or in anything else  but so much is done is 'his' name that directly impacts on my life. I am unshakable in my belief that god is no more real than santa but that sometimes makes religious people far angrier than their belief system does me. If I'm wrong, 'forgive me'

I really don't try to be controvertial, it just comes out that way sometimes. each to their own, just not in my name please.

funny how people think that what's going on is a "faith" issue.

It actually has very little to do with that. sure Hamas and Hezbollah are Muslim "organisations" however if you go back in history you will actually find that the Jews and Muslims co-existed just about fine and dandy a while ago.

The problem there is at the moment is that there is a completely one-sided "balance" of power.

Israel has it and the surrounding countries don't.

The main thing that creates support in the countries surrounding Israel for actions such as kidnapping Israeli soldiers is the incredible poverty that can be found in areas such as Gaza, the West bank and southern Lebanon.

I am not blaming anyone for this however it should be pointed out that EU countires and,e specially the US, have always given bagloads of money to Israel whereas the "Palestinian cause" hasn't really recieved all that much.

Then the US and EU urge/order the Palestinians to hold democratic elections and are surprised when hamas wins. Eevryone should have seen this coming; If a country is dirtpoor but finds itself next to a neighbour who gets bagloads of cash who also has "stolen" your land and dictates everything you do, the people will vote for anyone promising to "get rid of that occupier and bully".
After Hamas was voted into power (whether you agree with it or not) the EU and US immediatly withdrew what little funds (compared to what they give to Israel) the Palestinians received..thereby putting 1000's of people out of jobs and even preventing decent healthcare in the Palestinian area. This was incredibly stupid (look at what those actions did to germany after WW1) as that meant that when the Israeli soldier was kidnapped the mood amongst the Palestinian people was one of defiance and therefore they will now NEVER help with the effort to find him.

The response by Israel was over the top as they bombed civilian complexes (power stations etc) and, as the history of the Palestinians shows, leaves the Palestinians with no other option (in their mind) but to be stubborn and resist any effort to free that Israeli soldier.
This has always been the response by the Palestinians to overwhilming force (they are nothing if not brave...as a people).

Hezbollah is actually not funded by Lebanon...but by Iran. so the consequences of Israel launching attacks at Lebanon (and Beirout in particular) can only lead to one thing unless the Israelis themselves stop...and that is full scale war.

From an Israeli perspective you also have to understand that they feel they have no other option at the moment as they feel that doing nothing would only lead to all their neighbours (they aren't surrounded by people who are friendly to them) launching some form of attack  on them.

The main problem in Israel (which is 90% responsible for their response in situations like this) is that the Israeli parlement is controled by the marginals..(the extremists..and Orthodox). the most "extreme" people in Israel are the settlers and the extremeley Orthodox Jews who claim it is their God who gave them the land.
80% of all Israelis are in favour of giving the Gazastrip and westbank backot the Palestinian people and share Jerusalem with them. (essentailly going back to a shared nation which is was at the beginning of the 19th century) but cine the people who get the government the power are the extremists those are the people the government wants to appeace and why the government is striking so violently against anyone who"messes with them".

It is rather interesting to note that the Lebanese are still calling for a peacefull and diplomatic solution att the momnent. I think that shows tremendous restraint on their part as any other nation would probably have viewed the latest attacks by Israel as an extreme act of War and therefore would have retalliated. Granted the Lebanese don't stand a chance against the firepower of the Israeli's but if they were to retalliate that would still lead to an allout war int he area, probably with Iran and Syria getting involved...and that's a situation noone wants.

It's time for the west to understand that only actively supporting one party int he region does nothing for that regions itsself and therefore the EU and US (whose foreign policy in this case is very much influenced by (Jewish lobby groups and is therefore scared to act) need to start building the infrastructure in the Palestinian areas as much as they are giving money to Israel to buy Weapons.


Longpost and moaybe not too coherent but that's mainly because I don't have time to spend all day writing one that would be (and probably block the entire forum with it's l;enght)


In short...this escalation/ war is not theological but purely political.

very  :goodpost:

There is no such thing as God. I'm unshakably sure of that.

But you know what, sometimes I wish I did have faith and envy those who do.

Boldie is right - this situation has nothing to do with religion, that's just a red herring.

There is no inherent religious hostility between Jews and Muslims - they lived together quite peacefully and both cultures blossomed when what is now Spain was under Islamic rule 1300 years ago. Indeed Islamic Spain became a safe haven for Jews who were persecuted in other areas.

The current situation is mostly due to people being driven from their homes by an invading country - of course that's going to cause resentment and anger. And, if the oppressed people are poor, and their enemy has tanks, nuclear missiles and helicopter gunships, of course they're going to suicide bomb civilian targets - they have no firepower with which to hurt Israel militarily.

In the long-term things are only going to get worse. The Arab states surrounding Israel are on borrowed time economically (that oil's not going to last much longer) and when the oil goes, the US will lose interest in the region - there'll be no reason to keep giving Israel big sticks with which to keep the Arab states under control when the oil has gone.

You'll have the Israelis and the Arabs still at each other, but with no US President bothering to pull them apart when they start fighting. The Arabs trying to push Israel into the sea + the Israelis having nuclear weapons = a lot of mess.

you do, that's what faith is. being absolutely sure that what you believe is so, regardless of others trying to convince you otherwise. As I said, I defend an individuals right to believe whatever they want spiritually. The only thing that does bother me is members of Evangelical faiths that see atheism as a void to be filled by their belief. One day when I have time and the Jehovah's witnesses knock the door I'll invite them in and try to have them leave atheists.

I have actually done just that when I was quite a bit younger (about 21)...just sat down with them and had a discussion. The interesting thing was that the "trainee" jehova's witness actually seemed more interested in the debate then the older one who was showing the younger one the ropes.

Had a good chat with them actually. I completely disagree with them ofcourse, I am close to being an anti-theist, but a good conversation nonetheless and well worth a couple of hours of my time..Atleast it gave me an insight into the world that is Jehova's witness.

You can't really blame Israel for retaliating.  Hezbollah do have two of the countries soldiers captive.  I have noticed that many of the news reports paint Israel as the bad guys.  In my opinion they are only doing what is necessary to put their message across.

If you trace religion back to its origins it was used to control the masses, now certain elements of "the masses" use religion as an excuse to destroy anything they dont agree with. What will be will be imo and leave them all to do what they wish. If the end of the world is coming I am not gonna spend my last days worrying about it.