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Title: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: I, Zimbra on July 25, 2006, 09:01:54 PM Here's a hand history for you. This is not a bad beat story, because I got my money in with the worst hand, but it does raise some implications that make me unsure as to how to proceed in similar circumstances.
Namely: if someone minimum raises on the flop, am I supposed to put them on a set or two pair every time and just auto-fold top-pair-top-kicker or an overpair? Or do I put the rest in? Here's the hand: Quote ***** Hand History for Game 4801476874 ***** $50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 24, 21:12:23 ET 2006 Table Table 96396 (Real Money) Seat 6 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 6: Zimbra ( $34.43 ) Seat 2: ianlippert ( $70.80 ) Seat 5: whee_l ( $70.72 ) Seat 4: bioneerjaq ( $79.60 ) Seat 7: mobilly111 ( $35.73 ) Seat 9: eric2555 ( $97.38 ) Seat 3: WuTang87 ( $25.85 ) Seat 8: FlopMeDead ( $23.39 ) Seat 1: Gay80 ( $49.50 ) Seat 10: notanilla ( $20 ) mobilly111 posts small blind [$0.25]. FlopMeDead posts big blind [$0.50]. notanilla posts big blind [$0.50]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Zimbra [ Kh Ks ] eric2555 calls [$0.50]. notanilla checks. Gay80 folds. ianlippert folds. WuTang87 folds. bioneerjaq folds. Zimbra raises [$2.50]. mobilly111 folds. FlopMeDead calls [$2]. eric2555 calls [$2]. notanilla folds. ** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 3d, Qd ] FlopMeDead bets [$8]. eric2555 raises [$16]. Zimbra is all-In. FlopMeDead: i have more outs then god FlopMeDead is all-In. eric2555 calls [$15.93]. ** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ] ** Dealing River ** [ 8s ] eric2555 shows [ Jd, Qs ] two pairs, queens and jacks. Zimbra doesn't show [ Kh, Ks ] a pair of kings. FlopMeDead doesn't show [ Td, Kd ] high card king. eric2555 wins $22.08 from side pot #1 with two pairs, queens and jacks. eric2555 wins $67.92 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and jacks. At the point at which I either have to push or fold, I am still thinking that the shortstack could have just about anything - including the draw that he ends up holding - plus the mateyboy minraiser might very well have Q-K or A-Q or something like that. I ask because there are plenty of times recently where I made top-pair-top-kicker or something of that nature, and ended up going broke to a set; yet I notice I am not making much money from my own sets (people just fold!) and most of these losses are due to me being min-raised on the flop and then pushing, or calling to fourth street and then becoming committed to the hand anyway. Clearly I am doing something wrong; I must be pushing with hands I shouldn't be - or at least I am too deep-stacked to really play these hands as hard as I am. Any comments and suggestions are welcome :) Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: Nem on July 25, 2006, 09:12:35 PM Board: Jc 3d Qd
Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 13.3998 % 12.40% 01.00% { KhKs } Hand 2: 48.1728 % 47.18% 01.00% { KdTd } Hand 3: 38.4275 % 38.43% 00.00% { QsJd } Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: I, Zimbra on July 25, 2006, 09:17:27 PM I did say that I am aware in this instance of how badly I got my money in.
I am also talking about generic circumstances of facing min raises. Assume, if you like, that I get a call from one or other player preflop, but not both. I bet the pot on the flop and am min raised. Do I push with the KK on that flop, call, or fold? Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: Nem on July 25, 2006, 09:22:45 PM I did say that I am aware in this instance of how badly I got my money in. I am also talking about generic circumstances of facing min raises. Assume, if you like, that I get a call from one or other player preflop, but not both. I bet the pot on the flop and am min raised. Do I push with the KK on that flop, call, or fold? With your stack, and in the above scenario, I would be going all in with KK. Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: I, Zimbra on July 25, 2006, 10:44:17 PM Okay, situation #2 - this probably typifies the kind of thing I mean, better than the example above :D
Quote ***** Hand History for Game 4558773931 ***** $50 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 20, 18:37:39 ET 2006 Table Table 97778 (Real Money) Seat 9 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 9: julaukka ( $42.75 ) Seat 2: Zimbra ( $25.20 ) posts small blind [$0.25]. posts big blind [$0.50]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Zimbra [ Aspades Ad ] Zimbra raises [$2]. folds. folds. folds. folds. folds. julaukka calls [$2]. folds. folds. ** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, Ks, 9c ] Zimbra bets [$3.50]. julaukka raises [$7]. So what now, all-in and pray he doesn't have K-9 (yes, we know they play these hands) or 9-9 or 3-3? How if we both had $50 at this table, instead? (My point is that if we both had $50 before the hand started, we'd have about $40 each left on the turn, and there would be $20 or so in the middle, so there's no way to get to the river without probably spending the rest.) I am asking this, incidentally, because looking back over my hand histories I notice that of late I have rarely seen people min raise a flop with a hand that doesn't beat a pair of aces. Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: Longy on July 25, 2006, 10:51:10 PM The situation you have got here is you have someone betting into a raisor and then someone min raising them before it gets to the raisor. This scares the life out of me to be honest.
What hands from the min raisor really do this unless he is an idiot he does this with aq and then a load of hands that beat you. Also flop me dead is going all in with any part of this because of his stack that pot odds with dictate a call, so neither of these players is testing you they have a hand, that is a fact. Adding this all up its a pass for mine, never put your stack in here with a pair UNLESS you have a solid read on at least one of your opponent is a fish. Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: Longy on July 25, 2006, 10:56:34 PM 2nd example push it to about 18 and see what he does. He maybe testing you the bare k. Then see what he does if he pushes its quite read dependent. You can't fold and i hate calling here but you want to leave wriggling room with your raise IMO
Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: byronkincaid on July 26, 2006, 12:10:51 AM Hand 2 I have been calling recently and then checking turn and seeing what he does. Read dependant obv. People do wierd things, checking down with 2 pair and stuff. I'm not saying this is the best thing to do, just what i have been trying out.
But I never play short. Lose $5, Rebuy. Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: Trix on July 26, 2006, 12:29:23 AM Did that guy say I have more outs than god!!
Haha that is brilliant! "...if someone minimum raises on the flop, am I supposed to put them on a set or two pair every time and just auto-fold top-pair-top-kicker or an overpair? Or do I put the rest in?" No, a min-raise on the flop does not automatically mean that you are beat. Using your second hand history example (the AA one), I will min-raise on that flop with a lot of hands in position. The 2 which you can beat would be a flush draw and a mid pair like JJ or 99, also i might min-raise with TPTK. So, how do you find out if someone has one of these hands or has a set or 2pair and has you beat? 2 options. 1) make a decent re-raise 2) flat call and see what he does depending on the turn card OOP I favour the first 1 - raise. Problem with 2 OOP is that if you check the turn and he checks behind, while this would indicate a draw (and hence gives you your required info) it does give him a free card. You could call and instead of checking, lead out a non-flush completing turn with a pot bet which if raised you can assume you are beat, and if called you must slow down on the river. So re-raise here OOP. If he raises you gotta fold em. If he calls just try to get a cheap showdown, sometimes you're beat here, sometimes he just wont fold his AK. Title: Re: Facing the minimum raise on the flop in NL HE cash games Post by: I, Zimbra on July 26, 2006, 02:16:26 AM I don't rebuy as soon as I lose $5 because I would quickly lose track of how much I've put on the table. I rebuy back up to the max at regular intervals, usually on the hour, if I'm short.
In #2: The problem with re-raising less than all-in that I can see here is that any decent reraise surely pretty much commits me to the pot, no? I mean, if I had $50 at the table, and then reraised his $7 to something like $20, I would have just $27 or so back anyway. Does that mean I should fold for almost 3-1 odds (pot would be about $75, $27 or so to call) if he then sets me all-in? |