blonde poker forum

It's the first hand of the WSOP. You have 10,000 in chips and the blinds are 25-50.

Everyone passes to you in late position and you decide to raise to 150 with AcQs.

The guy sitting next you calls as do both blinds. There is 600 in the pot.

The flop comes Kh Qd Th.

It is checked around.

The turn is the very pretty Jd.

You have the nuts! Yum yum.

It is checked you and you reasonably bet 500. Now, the guy next to you raises to 1500 and then the BB goes allin for 9850!!!!

What do you do?

Fold. Both must also have the ace and most likely at least one with the flush draw.  600 chips in the pot, plus ur 500 invested on turn times the 3 of you.  2100 chips in the pot, split 3 ways.  You're risking the rest of your chips to get 700 back of what you already have invested (on top of course the rest of your own chips you're putting in which you will get back if split 3 way).  Not worth the risk of going out incase that 20% chance flush comes IMO.

Call or regret it thereafter. You are ahead, possibly splitting the pot but not behind. Either could be on the nut flush draw but they still have to draw..... oh bum, I'm not sure now, there more I think of the situation the less happy I am.

im guessing the bb has the ace of hearts or diamonds with another heart or diamond and is hoping he gets a caller with another ace and is having a free shot at the flush. as its the 1st hand. maybe pass

fold. I'm guessing they both have the nut flush draws. It's the first hand of the tournament. I can wait.

excellent post coca, i wouldn't have gone thru all that but i'd have folded too ;D

I think it's a must fold...

That's why tikays move with A3 as discussed elsewhere is such an excellent play.

How many times is it correct to muck the nuts in hold'em?

If another player had Ax in tikays hand they would be making a mistake in calling.

Seeing as its hand 1, i would ask for a chip count from both players so evreyone thought i was funny.

Then i would pass.

1 bit of info missing... did the player stump the 10k or is he sponsored?   ;D

Did he ask "does a flush beat a str8" before re-raising?

In hold em i think only in very rare situations you will ever fold the nuts....VERY rare

I think there is only the oppurtunity to pass the nuts if there is a flush draw on the board as that is the only thing that would make me pass the nuts in a multi way pot.


If we talk about Omaha i think it is a completely different story, i hope Ben Grundy doesnt mind but i found this in the early stages of his blog, im sure he can explain it much better than me! ;



There are a number of situations that I think in Holdem you will lose all your money. The most obvious is holding KK in the pocket against someone who has AA. If it flops rags then your hand is almost impossible to get away from. Another situation where I think you inevitably lose all your money is when you have AK and it flops an A or a K and two low cards. If your opponent has made a set then you are likely to lose alot or all your money of money practically drawing dead. If you flop a flush and your opponent flops a higher flush its very hard to get away from and the same for straights.

The reason I like playing Omaha cash is that you don?t ever have to be drawing dead. If you play well you should always have a number of outs. Omaha is a game of drawing too or playing the nuts. If you draw to the nuts straight, nut flush and only commit all your chips when you have top set then you are never drawing dead when you commit your money. You still get to trap a number of players who will call you down without the nuts if you do hit. Also because Omaha is a more attractive game for players who like to gamble it tends to attract a lot more bad players than high stakes Holdem cash. I?ve seen some truly terrible players blow well over £ 5000 playing like maniacs.

Talking about Omaha I was playing the £ 2.50/£ 5 on Betfair and had the following interesting hand. I have £ 750 in front of me before this hand. There are 7 players on and there is a pre flop raise of £ 25 and I call on the big blind. 6 players call. I have 9sJsKdAd. It flopped 7c8h10c to give me the nut straight. I lead out a raise of £ 80. Player to my left calls and the player behind him reraises £400 more to play. The player on the button goes all in for £900. So I am sitting with £640 with the nuts and after deliberating I pass. I think this is the right play for the following reasons. Firstly, I am pretty sure at least one of the big raisers already has the nut straight and perhaps even both of them. However, as there is a flush draw and I can?t improve on my straight this is a very dangerous hand to commit all my money. Say for example that raiser A has 9JQ# then he already has the nuts and 7 cards to kills me as he will improve upon my straight. I can assume that either player A or B is drawing to a flush or has a chance of making a full house. As it happened player A had had the Ace Flush draw and two pair and player B had the nut straight and the Q to give him straight improvements. So on the flop if I had gone all in the size of the pot I would have been involved in would have had £ 2405. Player A had a 45% of winning the entire pot. Player B had a 4% chance of winning and I would have had a 0.5% chance of winning all the money. There was about a 50% chance of a split pot between me and player B. These odds just aren?t favorable enough for me to commit all my money. I have passed the nuts before in similar situations when I can?t improve my hand and at least two people have gone crazy on the flop.

What happened? Well a river heart came which gave player A all the money.

now if the same situation was in the early stages of a big HOLD EM tourney.......

you have J9 offsuit

flop comes 7c8dTc

you lead a big bet out and get a caller, then a raiser, then someone who goes all in what do you do?




Sunday

I would fold with a frown.

Mr Camel, we met in  Las Vegas briefly in Brian's suite. There was a hand from a tournament you had played in Europe somewhere that you discussed, which also occurred on the first hand of the tournament. I cant remember what it was but I remember thinking that was also quite an awful dilemma. What was that hand?

Congrats on your result by the way!  ;D

Why are you asking this question Camel? You would never in a million years play cards as good as AQs.
Congrats on the win by the way.

Well thank you Keith. I must add, howerver, that the majority of the table, including a man whose game I respect muchly, Simon Zach, took it to be a poor play on my part. I guess my subtlety just went "whoosh".......

Is this a real example, and if so what actually happened?

Has anyone ever been knocked out of the main event on the first hand?!?!

If not, think of the publicity.... ;)

RyG - yes lots of times i would imagine but a real example is a guy from Nottingham - (Ian McDonald) had this happen in 2004.  he had KK and raised - his oppo had AA and smooth called the raise, the board came complete rags and the guy with AA bet out (obviously representing some of the board from the blinds and Ian Moved in. - bye bye!

Hi Baron,

Yes I remember meeting you at Brian's suite.

I'm not sure which hand you are refering to but I guess it's one of these two (both from the Masterclassics at Amsterdam):

1. I was on  a great table for such a big event... Three bona fida superstars. Start with 10,000 chips blinds 25-50. Guy limps UTG I find KK in second position and raise to 300. 5 Callers! Back to the limper who moves in for 10k! Should I call or pass?

2. The other one I wasn't involved in... It's after a few hours of the comp... Guy moves in early position with 78d... middle posi JJ also moves in. Button finds QQ and calls. SB is KK and moves in. BB is AA!!!! Amazing hand that all the big hands are found in ascending order round the table...

Mikky, no it's not a real example... But Tikay had the nuts with a flush draw at Sheffield on Friday and moved in and was ridiculed at the table for doing it. I reckoned it was excellent play and concocted this example to prove how good the play was...

I don't see it as a ridiculous play either.

Nothing wrong with preventing a split pot, or worse, allowing a full house to hit.

Yes I think it was example 1. That had me thinking for a few hours. Ugly as hell, especially with 5 people behind you. At first I though you should move in but the more I think about it the less I like your hand in this spot. Did you ever see his hand?

Actual hand I played this year!!!!!

1st hand of the 2005 wsop $2,000 circuit event at the Rio in March.

I have the button w/ Men the Master seated to my left, 6 limpers ahead of me , I call the 25 w/ 4d5d.(started w/ 2,000 in chips)

Flop is 2d,3h,3s

3 players check, 4th bets 100, fold, fold, I call, Men makes it 250(hes in the small blind) , everyone folds to me and I call.

Turn is Ad, Men bets 550, what do you do now! I have made my straight but there is a pair on the board ???

So many things go into theses questions, are you willing to lose early in some comps to give yourself a great start?
Who is the player you are playing against, I consider Men a gambler!

What do you think?

I pushed hoping he had a 3 and would call or was on a flush draw and may fold (he may be commited). If he calls I still may be ahead, if he folds im happy w/ that. I dont think he bets that big if he had turned the  F house,  

Men called and had the 3c/jd, river was no help and Men bitched to everyone that would listen on how bad I had played the hand.

A number of things made me call the bet on the flop, most important was the fact that I did not want to have a "long day" w/ Men stealling and outplaying me after flops, I thought it was best to gamble early and get chips early. How many times are you going to get a chance that good on the 1st hand of a comp.

4-5, 4-7, you must start loosening up Brian..........

tikay, go to cardplayer.com and look at the live updates of the $10,000 main event in Tunica to see the hand that John Juanda played, he pushed 25,000 in chips and you will not believe what he had ;D

I have just stumbled onto this thread.

I dont see why we are even talking about this hand. I would make the same play evreyday of the week. It's almost certain that 1 of your opponents has an A and if they do u get a 20% chance of taking their stack. If they dont have an A well you arent getting much more out of them anyway.

I have made the same play many times. and a few times hit the flush!!

Tikay it was perfect play, wd.

Brian - 4-7? I prefer J-4.....

Royal Flush - ty. But I did get some flak, although admittedly, at the time, I was going through something of a reverse rush, distributing chips willy nilly to one & all. You know, one of those those occasions when a muppet has a big stack, & the table are all whispering to each other " "I want some of them, leave a few for me"....

I have no idea what you are talking about  ::)

Yes I think it was example 1. That had me thinking for a few hours. Ugly as hell, especially with 5 people behind you. At first I though you should move in but the more I think about it the less I like your hand in this spot. Did you ever see his hand?
[/quote]

Immediately after the hand he told me he had AA. But at the bar a couple of days later he told me he had AK. You pays your money and takes your choice.

I asked a few top players what they would have done in my spot. Devilfish, Surinder and Asher Derei all said it was a definite call.

But when that table broke I had nearly 40k in chips so I guess passing wasn't a bad option after all...