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Party poker speed sit and go Blinds go up every 5 mins and is a super super fast structure with Money to top 3 50,30,20

***** Hand History for Game 5027899061 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $11 Buy-in Trny:27852998 Level:6 Blinds(300/600) - Friday, August 25, 20:38:54 ET 2006
Table Speed #1290638 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: hanson244 ( $230 )
Seat 9: MoneySpeaks ( $6680 )
Seat 2: Bertpup ( $7984 )
Seat 5: gtasteele ( $5106 )
Trny:27852998 Level:6
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Bertpup [  4d 6d ]
>You have options at Speed #1290690 Table!.
MoneySpeaks raises [1200].
hanson244 folds.

Do you go all in or fold?

Edit Image is pretty tight but have just started to loosen up

I would fold.

interesting..........
I think it depends on table image, if you have been tightish so far it's a good move.

I just more than mini-raise (ish) and put him all-in on the flop. (if he calls)

If he goes all-in over the top of the raise pre-flop, I fold of course. They usually don't without AA/KK in this spot though.

insta fold on the bubble with the stacks as they are

Fold, instantly.

I agree, i fold here.

If im reading this right, then there is still a person to act behind you who has a fair few chips.
Fold, and move onto the next hand.

easy push, he's an idiot if he calls you with anything.

I push here 100% of the time.

I may have missed something but i fold here 100% of the time.

i think tanks idea is the worst option  :D

Basically he is asking if you put a move on the guy.
If you go allin here he will fold a huge percentage of the time making it a very profitable thing to do.
It's not for all of course and you can end up looking like a right tit at times :D

Dale,

he is an idiot if he calls with bad cards.. but this is an $11 sng. they are full of idiots. The liklihood of getting called here is reasonably high. Just because people should fold doesn't mean they will fold. Blankly pushing here against unknowns is  +EV, but as a whole the move is nowhere near as profitable as you would expect.. because of their tendancy to call when they shouldn't . Against unknowns its a clear push, but against people that have given you reason to believe they will call, it probably isn't.

My general thinking in these spots is:

I would push 100% of the time in this spot against people who have given me no clear reason to make me think they will call. Pushing in these spots every time will work out to be +EV, but I think exercising a bit of player reading at the table and selectively folding makes it a higher EV spot.

Ace,

Look at the stack on the button.. is the other guy gonna risk going out on the bubble here when theres someone in there with 235 chips? ICM is something that equates tournament equity in given situations, and such is the situation here.. the guy is making an equity mistake if he calls with anything other then (something like) AA/KK and maybe QQ (i dont know for sure.. I didnt work it out) Thats the premise of Dales post, which I agree with most of the time (my one disagreement is in the prev paragraph)

ok I did the ev math. If you push on him and he puts you on any 2 random cards, he can only call you with AA, anything else is -ev for him.

ofcourse he's probably not smart enough to know this so if he calls with something AK its very -ev for him, very -ev for you and very +ev for the other 2 stacks.

I still push this 100% of the time and then get berated in the chat box in one of those common situations where the idiot is calling me an idiot because he doesnt understand sngs.

I agree to a degree. Ok if i think the raiser is a total fish idiot i fold. So.... I push 90% of the time  :D
Readless.... I push.

it's a fold...I can't believe people are sugegsting a push here. (no offense to anyone who does) Hanson only has 230$ left...he's going to be BB in 2 hands time.
You still have one guy to act behind you (BB I'm assuming by the way you wrote it up). So you lose you SB..you have no position in this hand and =unless hanson gets lucky in the next two hands he's out.

Insta fold...suited connectors are of no use in this situation as it's all about getting into the money first.

I fold everytime because the next blind is eating the 230 short stack.

I know you want to go for first, but for me, I make sure I am in the money before I try risky plays like that on the bubble.

Let him have the pot

That should worry the other 2 players into folding almost everything and thats why as the chip lead you can own the bubble.

own or be owned!

Really you should do whatever increases your $ev as opposed to playing for 3rd or playing for 1st.
It pays you in the long run.....

I agree with this thinking of owned or be owned but it is quite possible he has something. I would not like to risk my life on him folding, esp with such a short stack. He will have 4800 left for a pot with about 8700 in it, almost 2-1. With those odds I would have quite a large range of calling hands.

I like the aggresiveness, but still I fold

you'd be wrong to be thinking in terms of pot odds and chip ev..... rather than $ev.
pot odds matter much less the closer you are to the money, if you get 100% of the chips you only get %50 of the prizepool so it should be easy to see why you should not be thinking about value in terms of chips.

like i said i did the ev math for this hand and he cant call you with anything other than aces for it to be a +ev call.
you call with a loser range than that then youre losing money in the long run.

ofcourse if he's daft and calls makes the said -ev call it turns out to be -ev for you too, but i need to know that the raiser is an idiot for me not to push on him.

anyway if he calls you and you lose you're still finishing ITM most of the time.

Turn the situation around.

What if your the intial raiser and you suspect the move from the chip leader and fancy your chance to own the stt? I know the maths is there but i've called with less than AA KK QQ in these spots because i think i'm ahead and can practically wrap up 1st or 2nd.

Playing back at the CL on the bubble is also highly profitable if you have enough chips to plunge them into the depths of shortstack. I hate to be 3rd (more than 4th) in chips on the bubble where if the shortie doubles i am in trouble and i can't push back at a raise with any FE.

I just fold and stay out of trouble, i'm in no immediate danger and my hand is shit.

SIGH!!! The infallible Harrington

Bertpup, tell me you pushed, he called with A-K and then you outdrew him. Pleeeeeeease. It'll make me laugh all day.

bolt, 

what on earth is this meant to mean

Seems to me by the way you've phrased your question you already know

If I already knew I wouldn't bother asking

you shouldn't have bothered asking: "what on earth"

lol forget it

good idea

Here's how I see it....

Party poker speed sit and go Blinds go up every 5 mins and is a super super fast structure with Money to top 3 50,30,20

***** Hand History for Game 5027899061 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $11 Buy-in Trny:27852998 Level:6 Blinds(300/600) - Friday, August 25, 20:38:54 ET 2006
Table Speed #1290638 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: hanson244 ( $230 )
Seat 9: MoneySpeaks ( $6680 )
Seat 2: Bertpup ( $7984 )
Seat 5: gtasteele ( $5106 )
Trny:27852998 Level:6
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Bertpup [ it doesn't matter ]
>You have options at Speed #1290690 Table!.
MoneySpeaks raises [1200].
hanson244 folds.

Free chips

 rotflmfao

just out of interest does this mean it is entirely pointless to raise on the bubble if the CL is still to act and you don't hold AA?

no

Depends who the chip leader is. Normallly no, if Dale is the chip leader and to your left then yes.

The other option, if you simply must play that JJ, is to simply go all-in yourself. Can't bully a man when all his chips are already in the middle.

So when you're in the bubble and not the CL your options are allin or fold then?

What are your calling ranges then if you are the intial raiser and you consider the CL well capable of making a move with anything? My question was slightly pedantic.

against good agressive knowledgable Chip Leaders, that is usually the case..(depending on the seating position at the table) but the whole point is that you wont be facing off against these people at the lower levels too often, they will take the "fold until I get in the money" line so you can just raise normally and they will play their hand according to its strength (ie fold bad/raise good)


depends why you play sng's.. if you just play because you wanna win the tournament, then you probably call with most of the good hands (66+,A10+ etc), because this is the play that likely maximizes your chipEV. If you wanna maximize your $ev, then you should play around with the numbers and see how profitable/unprofitable it is to call with different hands. I dont think ICM is the bible of sng play, i believe it has inherent flaws in it.. but for the main its really useful to understand as if you are playing 500/1000 of these a month.. making a few extra cents per sng soon adds up.

No, I wouldn't say this is true all the time. Sometimes the blinds are still relatively small, sometimes the CL will be acting before you, sometimes the chip leader is not a nutter *(happy days if this is the case)

Ooh and sometimes we have AA  ;D

*I mean nutter in a good way.


x and y factors involved still. How big are the blinds, how loose are the other players, what's the size of the shortstack, on what sort of 0-100% scale do you think your opponent will come over the top with nothing, what is your current table image, have you been seen to lay down much, what's the difference between the CL's stack and yours.

So can't give you a definitive answer there, it's situation dependant still.

Big big ass pairs usually though.  ;D AK is mince.

I push

Thanks for all the replys. In the end i decided to fold then proceded to shout weak at the top of my voice in frustration at myself. I would say in the situation above i am usually shipping my chips ins ( i also blame tighty for this fold as i had just read his post on instinct and felt that if i did raise all in i was going to get called ;))


For me i feel that the time to make the safest chips in a speed sit and go is at the bubble. For me when play gets down to 4 handed i would rather go out 4th than give up a good chance to win chips to help get me into a winning position.

I find the best thing about the all in move in a situation like this is that when you get the initial raiser in the chat box calling you all sorts of names is the cherry on top of the cake for me.

yup mate you get the good feeling of moving all in, which is always a good feeling.
then you get to make the villain mad..... I love it when a donkey gets mad, it gives me a buzz !!!

They usually rail for a bit when they call with their AK and lose :)

yeah when they rail I always say "you're typing with green text, sign of a loser" or "observers opinions are usualy wrong" just to get the donk on tilt so he can jump into my next table and lose more money.

I know, i know, i shouldn't scare the fish.... fine line between putting them on tilt and making them leave  :D

Ok a question, do people not understand the reasoning behind a push or are you seriously doubting the reasoning?

its made me laugh just looking through this forum, some people mentioning that they wouldnt push as they dont think suited connectors are to be played at this stage etc. Truth is it does not matter what cards Bertpup is dealt here, make it 72 off if you like , you would still make the move with these !! The fact is that you are CL on the bubble and you cannot go out in One hand, it would take two losses before youre off. For everyone else, they've all got that worry that they could be off any hand. The thing that makes the push here even better is that you have someone on less than the SB chips! And the others on the table will be aware of this too!

Yeah, i just dont get it.

Also i keep losing pots with str8s against flushes :dontask:

This is all you need to know for this situation, fold and move on.

Maybe the people for a push here have forgoten the level at which your average $11 sng is played

I understand the reasoning. And I also realise the fact that as chip leader I can't be knocked out in 1 hand. With all these factors I still fold.

However, I dont fold because I dont agree with the reasoning being put forth by the people on here, I fold bcause I know that the guy is calling 99% of the time. I dont want to put my chips in the pot in a situation where I know I will be called. If this was a STT with a greater buyin, say 100-200 dollars I would definitely advocate raising all in as most times players at that level will recognize the situation. But as Bolt says, this is a low end STT, 11$

I know people will disagree with this but I feel his 1200 raise on top of the 600 blind is too much for him to fold to an all in

 ;iagree;

Class move, but like others have said its a question of player standard. I don't know what its like, if they are fish its probably best too pass. Having said that, i still ship it in :D

I'll only push here if I know my opponent. There are players at $100 and $200 STT who call here with all sorts of hands nevermind at $11.