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Title: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 04, 2006, 05:04:28 PM PokerStars Game #6166585140: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/09/04 - 11:59:21 (ET)
Table 'Merope' 6-max Seat #3 is the button Seat 1: dimkin ($700 in chips) Seat 3: flexgon ($486.50 in chips) Seat 4: number007 ($400 in chips) Seat 5: Thee Baron ($373 in chips) number007: posts small blind $2 Thee Baron: posts big blind $4 JaBlue: sits out *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Thee Baron [Qd 3d] dimkin: folds flexgon: raises $4 to $8 dimkin leaves the table number007: calls $6 DAJ6666 leaves the table Thee Baron: calls $4 *** FLOP *** [Qs 3s Js] number007: checks Thee Baron: bets $16 flexgon: raises $24 to $40 number007: folds Thee Baron: raises $60 to $100 flexgon: calls $60 *** TURN *** [Qs 3s Js] [2c] Ok so now I wished I'd thrown for the extra $4 pre flop. This guy is playing pretty loose aggressive. I'm out of position, what do I do now? Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Royal Flush on September 04, 2006, 05:11:07 PM Change underwear
Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Nem on September 04, 2006, 05:12:46 PM All in
Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: mjrevie on September 04, 2006, 05:15:09 PM All in I agree. I say he has the ace of spades. His other card may be another ace or a K. Put all your chips in and hope another spade doesnt hit. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: ACE2M on September 04, 2006, 06:01:28 PM A perfect hand for analysis. I look forward to some shark giving a good reasoning.
It's wrong but i'm tempted to check here. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: totalise on September 04, 2006, 06:09:22 PM I dont like the flop action to check the turn here, hes checking behind with all the hands you want to bet.
i'd just go ahead and stick some money in on the turn, and get stacked by QJ.. at least this way if he does have some big spade/PP/AK/AQ/ other draw you made him pay up! Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Canuck on September 04, 2006, 07:30:33 PM Id say KK with the K of spades or AA with the A of spades.
I think you are ahead but could fall behind easily. I would bet the pot. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Canuck on September 04, 2006, 07:31:39 PM upon looking at the preflop action again, he chose to flat call up to 100 so I was wrong, not aces.
I will say KK with the K of spades Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: londonpokergirl on September 04, 2006, 07:49:16 PM i'm thinking overpair to board with spades as outs
at moment you are way in front Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: temp0r on September 04, 2006, 07:55:59 PM shove it it there anyday. he'd of re-raised again on the flop if he had a decent enough flush already.
Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 04, 2006, 08:15:34 PM shove it it there anyday. he'd of re-raised again on the flop if he had a decent enough flush already. This was my thinking too. He would only flat call with a nut flush here. So the flush is unlikely. However a $60 reraise wasn't enough to put him off.... so he must have something worth holding? Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: londonpokergirl on September 04, 2006, 08:18:39 PM shove it it there anyday. he'd of re-raised again on the flop if he had a decent enough flush already. This was my thinking too. He would only flat call with a nut flush here. So the flush is unlikely. However a $60 reraise wasn't enough to put him off.... so he must have something worth holding? Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Nem on September 04, 2006, 08:19:34 PM Aspades Qh
Or high pair with high fd Aspades Ahrt Ks Kh Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 47.2727 % 47.27% 00.00% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 52.7273 % 52.73% 00.00% { KdKs } t 990 games 0.020 secs 49,500 games/sec Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 48.1818 % 48.18% 00.00% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 51.8182 % 51.82% 00.00% { AdAs } Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 44.7475 % 44.34% 00.40% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 55.2525 % 54.85% 00.40% { AsQh } or was he using the 'rope-a-dope' Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 17.0707 % 17.07% 00.00% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 82.9293 % 82.93% 00.00% { AsKs } Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 04, 2006, 08:23:56 PM Aspades Qh Or high pair with high fd Aspades Ahrt Ks Kh Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 47.2727 % 47.27% 00.00% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 52.7273 % 52.73% 00.00% { KdKs } t 990 games 0.020 secs 49,500 games/sec Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 48.1818 % 48.18% 00.00% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 51.8182 % 51.82% 00.00% { AdAs } Board: Qs 3s Js Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 44.7475 % 44.34% 00.40% { Qd3d } Hand 2: 55.2525 % 54.85% 00.40% { AsQh } The real value in playing against this type of holding then would be making him pass thinking I have the made flush already. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Nem on September 04, 2006, 08:28:24 PM If you had a small flush in this situation, how would you play it?
Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 04, 2006, 08:30:46 PM If you had a small flush in this situation, how would you play it? Lump it in right here. However.... surely only one of two things is happening if I do.... a) He is passing unless he is a complete mug (which I do not believe him to be) or b) I am beat Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 05, 2006, 02:17:36 AM I lumped it in and he called with QJ (in case you hadnt already guessed) but after a bit of a chat with Sexygee I think I played it incorrectly.
Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: T-V-B on September 05, 2006, 03:00:38 AM Bet the pot on the flop and the hand is much easier to play. If you had bet the pot, most opponents with stronger holdings than top & bottom pair, would make a more sizeable raise in order to get all the money in asap. In the instance where he basically min-raised your $16 bet, he could have any combination of made hands or draws at this point and you've put a decent amount of money in the pot and don't know where you stand. You've forced yourself to put more money in and see the turn.
You show strength and bet $26 on the flop, the standard 2-4 player gets excited and makes it $75, you discount the 2 hands you could possibly beat (because who min-raises utg with Aces or Kings?) and make a difficult laydown. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Nem on September 05, 2006, 03:34:38 AM He's got u by the short and curlies here. From my experience, he would raise more with the bare Ace. Fold for me Where? OTF? Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: snoopy1239 on September 05, 2006, 03:35:42 AM I think he has A-Q
I'd checkraise the Turn Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: snoopy1239 on September 05, 2006, 03:36:21 AM I think he has A-Q I'd checkraise the Turn I posted this without reading the rest of the thread. Guess I wasn't too far off. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: snoopy1239 on September 05, 2006, 03:37:08 AM He's got u by the short and curlies here. From my experience, he would raise more with the bare Ace. Fold for me Where? OTF? misdread it - I've reposted Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: snoopy1239 on September 05, 2006, 03:37:42 AM I lumped it in and he called with QJ (in case you hadnt already guessed) but after a bit of a chat with Sexygee I think I played it incorrectly. did he have a spade? Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Nem on September 05, 2006, 03:38:16 AM He's got u by the short and curlies here. From my experience, he would raise more with the bare Ace. Fold for me Where? OTF? misdread it - I've reposted You've been hanging around Tikay too much Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Nem on September 05, 2006, 03:38:38 AM I lumped it in and he called with QJ (in case you hadnt already guessed) but after a bit of a chat with Sexygee I think I played it incorrectly. did he have a spade? Who? The Undertaker... Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: snoopy1239 on September 05, 2006, 03:41:08 AM I lumped it in and he called with QJ (in case you hadnt already guessed) but after a bit of a chat with Sexygee I think I played it incorrectly. did he have a spade? Who? The Undertaker... lol - i think it's time for bed can't get anythink right tonight Anyhow, I put him on A-Q and would have checked raised the Turn. I think you played it okay, just unlucky. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 05, 2006, 03:02:03 PM Bet the pot on the flop and the hand is much easier to play. If you had bet the pot, most opponents with stronger holdings than top & bottom pair, would make a more sizeable raise in order to get all the money in asap. In the instance where he basically min-raised your $16 bet, he could have any combination of made hands or draws at this point and you've put a decent amount of money in the pot and don't know where you stand. You've forced yourself to put more money in and see the turn. You show strength and bet $26 on the flop, the standard 2-4 player gets excited and makes it $75, you discount the 2 hands you could possibly beat (because who min-raises utg with Aces or Kings?) and make a difficult laydown. If I bet the pot and he reraises me he could still have AQ (with A spades) couldn't he? Now it costs me much more to find out. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 05, 2006, 03:07:28 PM I think you played it okay, just unlucky. I don't think I did for the following reasons: 1) What could he possibly have to still be there with the flush out and me reresenting it? Whatever it is, it most likely has me beat. 2) Playing loose aggressive as I described he could easily have QJ. 3) My all in bet either scares him off if I'm winning (which I dont want) or he calls when I'm behind (which I dont want). A better play here would be to call a bet on the river where he may bet again (If I have checked twice to him) with something like KK AA or AQ or even a missed draw. It gets more money out of an opponent's losing hand and saves me being stacked if against a winning hand. Thanks for all the feedback. Very useful. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: Sheriff Fatman on September 05, 2006, 04:19:50 PM This is a classic reverse-implied odds situation on the flop where you are likely to either win a small pot or lose a big one. As such, I really don't like the re-raise on the flop which, when called, has indicated that the guy is not going away. I'd maybe have given it up to his re-raise on the flop but more than likely I'd have flat-called the bet, rather than re-raising, to see what the turn brings.
The problem with reraising is that you've created a big pot, out of position, in a hand where you're never likely to know where you are. Protecting your hand, if you're ahead, is going to be expensive and, given the likely range of hands you'd expect the opponent to hold (most of which have spades in them), you're still very vulnerable to redraws if you are ahead. I think with a flat call on the flop you can make a reasonable sized bet on a non-spade turn without committing the rest of your stack which would determine where you stand. Even then I might be inclined to check and see what the response is. Top and bottom pair, no flush draw, on that board is still a hand I'd hope I could get away from. However, with the pot you've created on the flop it becomes much more difficult to do so. Sheriff Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 05, 2006, 04:37:28 PM This is a classic reverse-implied odds situation on the flop where you are likely to either win a small pot or lose a big one. As such, I really don't like the re-raise on the flop which, when called, has indicated that the guy is not going away. I'd maybe have given it up to his re-raise on the flop but more than likely I'd have flat-called the bet, rather than re-raising, to see what the turn brings. The problem with reraising is that you've created a big pot, out of position, in a hand where you're never likely to know where you are. Protecting your hand, if you're ahead, is going to be expensive and, given the likely range of hands you'd expect the opponent to hold (most of which have spades in them), you're still very vulnerable to redraws if you are ahead. I think with a flat call on the flop you can make a reasonable sized bet on a non-spade turn without committing the rest of your stack which would determine where you stand. Even then I might be inclined to check and see what the response is. Top and bottom pair, no flush draw, on that board is still a hand I'd hope I could get away from. However, with the pot you've created on the flop it becomes much more difficult to do so. Sheriff Spot on Sheriff. My flop play was the cause of the problem. (Don't you love a good problem though?) I could have played the flop any number of other ways to be honest. A much bigger crime IMO though is not slowing down after his calling my reraise. This is where I stacked myself. The point of my reraise was to take the pot down there and then after getting the extra bet out of him. When it didn't, to back it up with my stack was a bit silly. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: T-V-B on September 05, 2006, 05:51:13 PM Bet the pot on the flop and the hand is much easier to play. If you had bet the pot, most opponents with stronger holdings than top & bottom pair, would make a more sizeable raise in order to get all the money in asap. In the instance where he basically min-raised your $16 bet, he could have any combination of made hands or draws at this point and you've put a decent amount of money in the pot and don't know where you stand. You've forced yourself to put more money in and see the turn. You show strength and bet $26 on the flop, the standard 2-4 player gets excited and makes it $75, you discount the 2 hands you could possibly beat (because who min-raises utg with Aces or Kings?) and make a difficult laydown. If I bet the pot and he reraises me he could still have AQ (with A spades) couldn't he? He could have AsQ, but you've narrowed his range down considerably from the range of his $40 min-raise, which could have been anything. His new range would have been - AsQ, QJ, KsQ, possibly AsJ (discounting AA-JJ because of the min-raise pre-flop and AsXs would probably smooth call). "Now it costs me much more to find out." Now, atleast it gives you the opportunity to fold. If you don't want to fold, it would improve the flow of the whole hand. Betting the pot, 3-betting all-in is a much more credible line for a small flush or a hand that has him beat. It removes the horrible situation of being out of position on the turn, with $270 left in a $200+ pot. Title: Re: Am I behind here? Post by: The Baron on September 06, 2006, 02:27:21 AM Bet the pot on the flop and the hand is much easier to play. If you had bet the pot, most opponents with stronger holdings than top & bottom pair, would make a more sizeable raise in order to get all the money in asap. In the instance where he basically min-raised your $16 bet, he could have any combination of made hands or draws at this point and you've put a decent amount of money in the pot and don't know where you stand. You've forced yourself to put more money in and see the turn. You show strength and bet $26 on the flop, the standard 2-4 player gets excited and makes it $75, you discount the 2 hands you could possibly beat (because who min-raises utg with Aces or Kings?) and make a difficult laydown. If I bet the pot and he reraises me he could still have AQ (with A spades) couldn't he? He could have AsQ, but you've narrowed his range down considerably from the range of his $40 min-raise, which could have been anything. His new range would have been - AsQ, QJ, KsQ, possibly AsJ (discounting AA-JJ because of the min-raise pre-flop and AsXs would probably smooth call). "Now it costs me much more to find out." Now, atleast it gives you the opportunity to fold. If you don't want to fold, it would improve the flow of the whole hand. Betting the pot, 3-betting all-in is a much more credible line for a small flush or a hand that has him beat. It removes the horrible situation of being out of position on the turn, with $270 left in a $200+ pot. Agreed, but I think his calling my $60 reraise on the flop should have been enough to make me pass anyway, I just couldn't coz I'm a fish! lol |