blonde poker forum

I have been playing online poker for a few years now and to be honest I havent been to serious about it. I played for entertainment, set myself a max of how much I could afford a week (sometimes went over it) but as I dont get out much I considered it to be my "fun" time.

I turned the corner just before Christmas last year and havent deposited since then but I now feel the time is right to move on.

To be honest i really hoped this day wouldn't come as I feared I would not enjoy the game anymore if I took it too serious but........its here.

I need....hope....want to improve my game so all advice will be carefully studied.

First of all I need to learn pot odds etc, I previously didnt want to go down this road as I quite like going allin now and again with a bizarre hand and outdrawing someone with AA but I realise now that I need to learn them. Listening to snatty at BB3 and "At it" at the p4c game the week before and would you believe Flushy has made me realise that it is essential to know them. So can someone please advise me on the best (simplest) book to buy.

Many of you who have played with me will know I am very readable. I tend to play very tight and when I do try to make the odd steal I fall flat on my face..so what am I doing wrong? Whenever I try to vary my game I end up losing half my chips, comments from blondes who know me would be appreciated here. BTW can I just add that I do rather well on sit and gos when the table is full of unknowns but dread a reconized name coming to the table. I have read Wardonkeys article which I found very helpful but I still lack that edge I feel.

I would like to play more mtts. I gave up on these a while back as I had made 10 second places and have still to win one which I know probably means that I need to improve my HU game (true) rather than my mtt skills however the games I have played were either freerolls or very cheap ie $2 games. I seem to struggle in mtts, I can survive forever as mrs low stack but always seem to bust out pre bubble if I have chips. I would like to move up stake wise and find a better level of game but I lack the self confidence to do this. Any advise on which book to read?  PS Ive read Harringtons.

Finally I dont know if its etiquette to ask this but would anyone like to share what notes they have on me?

I feel I am stuck in a rut where im doing okay but not improving so any advise would be appreciated.

Im going back to bed for a while as I only had 2 hours kip before getting up for the kids  :D Look forward to reading your replies later.

Well, I 've never played with you but would recommnend Supersystem. It is top notch for all forms of poker (Supersystem two now only costs 16£)

I am mainly playing HU games online at the moment as most people don't know who to play HU and you can clean up very nicely on them. I would recommend to give you some experience HU play some HU online for a 5'er or tenner.

As I've said I've nevber played with you so can't give you any advice on how to improve your play..but the best of luck to you and I@m sure if you put the effort in the rewards will be of equal or greater amount.

Pot odds are less relevant in no-limit poker than they are in limit.  Implied odds played a much higher factor in no-limit poker.  Consequently most of the literature on no-limit poker, such as Harrington, don't really cover odds as much as you would like.

If you really want to get a better feel for pot odds and 'the maths' of poker then I suggest you play a bit of limit holdem, which is a much more mathematical game than no-limit and one in which you have to face these decisions frequently.  There are also far more good books covering limit poker than no-limit, so it should be easier to find something to meet your requirements.

I'm not suggesting that you switch to limit poker permanently.  However, if you dip your toe into some low-limit games you will find that it changes the way you think about the game (I went the other way, from limit to no-limit, and went through a similar experience).  One benefit is that you will have to make decisions on every street, something which rarely happens in no-limit, and it will give you a better 'feel' with regard to the vulnerability of hands, etc.

As for book recommendations, I would suggest one of the following, depending on how simple you want things to be:

Getting Started In Holdem - Ed Miller (beginners book, reviewed here (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/474).  Covers pot odds and implied odds during the LHE section.
The Theory Of Poker - David Sklansky.  This is the 'classic' book covering poker theory and was the first one to define many of these terms.  However, its not an easy read and is dry in style.  Probably best as a follow up book if you've any doubts about your level of understanding of the basics.
Weighing The Odds In Holdem Poker - King Yao.  A very good book on limit poker with a lot of detail on pot odds and counting outs.  Some sections are a bit 'mathematical' but its not overwhelming and there's a lot of good information in there.

Sheriff

i'm certainly not qualified to give you any advice Suzanne - not picked up a poker book myself yet!

just wanted to wish you the best of luck!

Edited as I didn't read the post properly :D

Good luck with your game :)

Its mentioned in her post that she's read the Harrington books already.

Sheriff

'Hold'em on the Come - Limit strategy for drawing hands ' by Rolf Slotboom and Dew Mason is a great book on learning how to count outs and calculate odds. Although it is for Limit, but it will make you very proficient in looking at draws and assesing if it is worth for you to stay in the pot after big raise.

Learning Omaha will improve your board reading skills (but try to learn for free as I have lost a lot of money on learning how to play this game)


If you want someone to tell you how to play ask your friend to shadow you for a game, and they can write a report on you.(what hands do u call with/raise fold and so on)

Pay more attention to what your opponents likely holding is, rather than what you are actually holding. This I feel is what alot of "ok" players do not do enough of. This will give you a better chance of taking down pots uncontested.

Pick on week players, and dont be scared to play down the streets, look for weekness and THEN take the pot.

What you are actually holding becomes less important the deeper into a tourney you go.

What Sherrif says about "implied" odds is very true. ie if you hold a small pp against someone holding AA - when you hit your set, you are going to get "paid" off because they cant let go of AA.

Pot odds, a simple way is to multiply your "outs" by 3 and this gives you the %age chance of hitting your card on the turn. - that should get you started. You can work out the rest by just playing around with numbers. After a while it will become second nature of what your odds are of hitting your card/cards.

sounds like your making good progress in your game suzanne.

I come from the school of learning by playing. I never read a Poker book, but do read the hand analysis threads on forums. For me too much information harms my game. So I play at a level where my mistakes are not too costly & I can slowly learn & improve (I hope). I agree that playing Omaha has helped my NL game. I find also playing PL cash fairly regularly keeps my game sharper & focused. This approach is working for me. I have not reloaded for 2 Years now (oh no probably bokked myself). I play for fun, to win of course, but the aim is still to build a bankroll that enables me to improve by gradually moving up levels.

I have played with you a few times, but hardly ever take notes (a mistake I know), but I seem to remember your dangerous when well chipped up.

Many better & experienced players than I will have more insightful advice.

Good Luck Suzanne.

so if you have 15 outs, multiply that by 3, and you are a 45% chance to hit your card on the turn? no

My Bad, maybe it was a little confusing.

When I said "on the turn" I meant AFTER the flop (ie turn and river)

Apologies

(and its over x3 to hit turn and river, just over x2 to hit the river)

Just ignore any advice given by anyone who thinks  9d 3d is an all-in reraising hand pre-flop...............

 ;scarymoment;

The best advice I can give you is to play some live games. It sharpens your game and because it is slower gives you more time to study other players moves. Even if it is a £5 buy in at your local casino I believe that live poker makes you a better on line player.....Good luck

Here are 2 pages that may help you :

http://www.pokertips.org/strategy/drawing.php - an article on odds

http://simulator.pokertips.org/odds.php - a pot odds calculator

Hmmm, I have always worked on x4 for the turn and x2 for the river.

15 outs actually works out to roughly 51.5% (so stick em in!)

Paul i dunno where you came up with these numbers but they are quite amusing! Your saying 15 outs is a dog?

No, I was trying to help Suzanne by saying "roughly" x3 - then later I have said just over x3 - Making 15 outs a favorite.

"Amusing" you say??

OK. Suzanne :

Odds for "hitting" your outs on the turn or river = use x 4 and take off a bit
Odds for "hitting" on the river = use x 2 and add a bit

Better James???

Nice to see you are back on "perdantic" form !!

And Jane, in the "perdantic" manor of James - hitting 15 outs is actually 54.1% ;p

Suz if you want a good book that covers pot odds and implied odd then get "phill Gordons little green book" It takes the essentials from Sklansky, Harrington, brunson and a few others, dispensed in a handy easy to read book with insight in to the mindo of a poker pro.

As for working out your "outs"% use the rules of 2 & 4 as posted by Ginger its as close as you need to be as its rarely out by more than 1.5%.

but the 54.1% for instance when you are talking about the odds of  6c 7c beating  Aspades Ks on a  5c Ac 8s board is more than 15 outs as the  6c 7c also has the opportunity to hit running 6's 7's or a 6-7 turn river.

 ;ifm;

 ;angelic;

I am a fish so can't offer anything other than a big   :)up and good luck

I also know that there is a fella off the TV called tikay who has mentioned the fact their are plenty of good articles and information on various websites for free.  I prefer websites than books, not just in poker but also in everything else.  Blonde, 2+2, P5's and Cardplayer all have excellent articles for free.

There we go.

All i am saying Paul is if you are going to offer someone some advice, its best to make sure you are correct!

Are you two league rivals on Blue Square?   :D

 ;grr; ;grr; ;frustrated; ;frustrated;

Not this time, ive sat out to give James a chance!  ;goodvevil;

I thought it was roughly 4.4% per out for turn and river and 2.2% for just the turn or just the river.

Knowing the chances of hitting on the turn and river is pretty irrelevant though, at least in the games I play, as the majority of the time you'll be facing another bet on the turn too!

if we are all being 'perdantic', it's 'pedantic'  ;hide;

Not if you are going to "push" on the flop ;)

 ;smackedbottom;

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

You tell them Claw! lol

Forget all this 2x 3x 4x bs.

Get a piece of paper, work them all out and have it sat next to you when you play untill you learn all the %'s for each situation.

ALL?!?!?

Thats going to be one big piece of paper to have every odds calculation for every given situation preflop, post flop and post turn..................  :D

I hear that is what James has used as his wallpaper!  rotflmfao

I just wanted to make the point as lots of people make a mistake by calling because they have pot odds when really they don't.

Good point m8

It won't take that long. It's a small price to pay if it helps you understand.

This is particularly useful for your opponents when playing live, especially if you use your finger and a ruler to find the %'s you are looking for. :)

Thanks for the advise guys..I seemed to stirred a bit of a hornets nest LOL.

Boldie I agree I definately need to practise more HU games as it really is my downfall so yes I will do that.

Playing omaha is also something that I want to try and I did think about trying it on play money but I originally learned to play hold 'em on play money and found that when I moved on to real money it was a TOTALLY different game so perhaps I will try it playing low stakes. Should I play on a site that doesn't give you your best hand as Blonde does?

Limit to be honest Sherriff I find totally boring though I have found I do reasonable well in limit mtts on the odd occasion (usually by accident) that I have played them but okay I will give that a go too.

Looks like I will be giving the $5 extended a miss for a while  :D

Playing live isnt really an option at the moment though I would like to play more but funnily enough I find that after playing live my online game seems to go to pot  :dontask:

Thanks for the web link M3boy, I understand what you mean about x4 on the turn x2 on the river etc what I dont understand is when I hear someone say "I have to call because I have pot odds" THAT is what I want to learn, its something to do with how much you put in the pot??

Thanks Billy that was the book I was thinking of and couldn't remember what it was called.

James are you suggesting that I work out % for each hand as im playing or sit down and work out every possible hand?

Suzanne - pot odds is simple maths.

If you use the "pot odds calculator" link I sent you, you can enter the pot size, the amount you have to bet and you can see if you have "pot odds"

Hope this helps.

Also, no need to write them down - play enough and it will become second nature.

Im just having a go on it now...this is cool  8)

Always thought you was a really good player Sue, best of luck in improving your game.

suz,  i'm pretty sure you can turn off the 'best hand' thing on blonde in your options.  Don't quote me on that though coz I've not tried it!

I am a bit of a dozy git,  where is the best hand thing?   I hadn't actually noticed there was one  :D

Good !!!!!



.... cos I'm fed up getting  ;smackedbottom;   ;busted; by you !!



Or Hoollied as its came to be known  ;D  8)

Perhaps at first while you are trying to work out pot odds and percentage calculations it would be better to stick to holdem til you got the hang of it - opening another completely different can of worms at the same time may only confuse the issue.

Once you've got the hang of pot odds and the like and you feel more confident then it might be worth dipping your toe in the omaha water.

suzanne

my mental notes on you are to withdraw from the hand if you come out betting. i thought you were tight agressive. i think you can use this to your advantage to steal pots if you have the courage to raise with nothing.

it was interesting observing claws play at the bash. ive seen her play online a couple of times and she is quite aggressive with her raising. always seems to do well. she did not play like that live but that might have been because she didnt want to go out early....is this the case claire?

good luck and i hope you win bucket loads

mad

funny you said that Mad.  I do tend to play fairly loose aggressive in STTs and small field MTTs - in larger MTTs I tighten up a lot for the first few levels.  The reason you wouldn't have seen much aggression from me on saturday is that i never got above starting chips was getting dealt pile of crap after pile of crap until I went out in level 3/4!!!  If I'd stayed in longer you would have seen a much different style of play from me once I'd had a chance to build up a decent stack and the blinds were bigger.

oh yeah - and I was drunk!

Suze, it's not that complicated really.

You need to know the odds for common situations like flush and str8 draws. Learn the odds for when there are 2 cards to come then if you need the odds for just one card simply half it.

Knowing the odds is very different from being able to use them properly. In NL they are usually only purely applicable if you or your opponent is all-in before the river. Otherwise your in the more speculative arena of 'implied odds'. Implied odds take into account money you could win if you hit your hand, but which is not yet in pot. Working out implied odds is not an exact science.

If you try to radically alter your style to become more profitable quickly then you will lose. It is far better to let your game evolve slowly. Continue to play in the games that your making in and move up the levels slowly, when you are sufficiently bankrolled. There is nothing wrong with experimenting with other games every so often, but you should know where you're making your money and stick to that as your default.

Here's a simple odds chart.

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds_chart.php?chance_format=percentage&decimals=2&Display=Display

Good luck.

But if you are interested in doing some poker computations check this link:

http://www.math.sfu.ca/~alspach/computations.html

 ;D

You stated that you have been doing well in stts but not playing mtts as you felt you were weaker heads up.
I think that if you try some more mtts you may find yourself doing better if you reach the final table. Your stt experience will come into use as you will be used to playing short handed tables now.