Title: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 09:40:53 AM
Hi Everyone...its been a while...but being laid up due to some cold virus means I have loads of time to write meaningless drivel on the net over the next day or so.
Anyway I was just wondering what criteria people use for backing others in tournaments?
Personally I think it is a loss making proposition but in todays game a very high proportion of players are put into tournaments by others and I cannot for the life of me understand why. The people wanting backing simply do not represent a fair chance of making a return or seem to think they are worth an excessive amount more than there true worth even when they do get the backing.
On numerous ocaissions people have come up to me and asked me to put them into tournaments and spun me a line about how there is a lot of dead money in the game and how they are a brilliant player and that if I put them in they would give me 50% of the return but quite frankly I am almost invariably going to come out with a point blank no.
Over a series of tournaments there are many players who are put in with a make up deal. eg You put someone into 100k worth of tournaments and then at the end of it all you get your 100k back and then split any profits 50/50. Some deals involve allowing for expenses for the player too but imo absoilutely no deal should allow for those as this could encourage the player to fiddle the accounts or live the high life at your expense. If at the end of the series the player didn't return the 100k then he could still owe you the 100k or any part of it but he wouldn't have to pay you it until he made a score at some future time.
The there is the one off deal where you put someone into a solitary tournament and then after your entry fee you split any winnings on a pre agreed percentage basis. As this is a one off it would be more typical that this would be split on a 70/30 basis in favour of the backer but depending on the players experience and abilities it could once again be a 50/50 deal but there would be no make up ie the player doesn't owe you the entry fee at some future date.
So now we have to consider what to look for in a player before deciding whether or not to back them.
But why should a player want backing? He is either broke or hasn't the bankroll to cope with the volatility and this could have come about for a number of reasons but I see little point in going there or discussing why the player needs or wants the backing.
The first kind of question I would need to think about would be whether the player was a winning player or not?
It always amazes me how mediocre losing players make up the overwhelming majority of those requesting backing and as such it is clear they represent loss making propositions so I have to ask how much money the person has made over the last year and would want a breakdown of how much he has paiud in entries and how much he has cashed. If he can't do this or says he has no records then it makes it a lot easier to say no and if they do have accurate verifiable figures then you can have a decent guage as to how much of a profit they are likely to return.
In todays game where so much is taken out in entry fees and tips for the dealers (typically totals around 9-13% and in smaller events considerably more) I find it very hard to believe that there are many players who return a profit. If on top of this you have to give away 30% or more to the player of returns then it becomes nigh on impossible to believe anyone at all makes a profit.
If we assume that 10% is taken out of a tournament prize pool then if you played 100 x $1000 buy in tournaments of 100 players as an average player you would expect to cash 10% of the time if 10% of the field were paid but this would only give back to you $90k of your $100k in total entriesas the other $10k is removed for fees and/or staff.
So to overcome this $10k deficit you are going to have to perform around 11% better than the average player which means as an approximation that you are going to have to be 2 standard deviations better than average to simply break even which means that only 5 of the hundred players who play thiis series of events is going to break even or do better than break even. If on top of this you have to give 30% or more to the player as a backer it becomes pretty clear that backing players is going to be a monster loss making proposition.
Of course if you have a significantly better than average player or play in a tournament where there are large numbers of below average players then you are going to have a chance as a player and backer of making money but still whatever the scenario returning a profit is going to be a really tough thing to achieve.
I just wondered what criteria others would use before bankrolling another player in tournaments because despite having done so myself in the past have always done it more as a favour to a friend rather than as a backer seeking a profit because quite frankly I have never come across any deal that was even remotely viable to the backer.
In a cash game it is a far simpler decision making process because it is easy to ascertain whether or not a player is a winning player or not and those kinds of arrangements are a lot easier to manage.
Any comments any may have on this area of poker would be welcomed.
BTW I am not talking about players exchanging small percentages of themselves with each other as this is a common practice and used to negate some of the extreme volatility in tournament play results.
Anyway I was just wondering what criteria people use for backing others in tournaments?
Personally I think it is a loss making proposition but in todays game a very high proportion of players are put into tournaments by others and I cannot for the life of me understand why. The people wanting backing simply do not represent a fair chance of making a return or seem to think they are worth an excessive amount more than there true worth even when they do get the backing.
On numerous ocaissions people have come up to me and asked me to put them into tournaments and spun me a line about how there is a lot of dead money in the game and how they are a brilliant player and that if I put them in they would give me 50% of the return but quite frankly I am almost invariably going to come out with a point blank no.
Over a series of tournaments there are many players who are put in with a make up deal. eg You put someone into 100k worth of tournaments and then at the end of it all you get your 100k back and then split any profits 50/50. Some deals involve allowing for expenses for the player too but imo absoilutely no deal should allow for those as this could encourage the player to fiddle the accounts or live the high life at your expense. If at the end of the series the player didn't return the 100k then he could still owe you the 100k or any part of it but he wouldn't have to pay you it until he made a score at some future time.
The there is the one off deal where you put someone into a solitary tournament and then after your entry fee you split any winnings on a pre agreed percentage basis. As this is a one off it would be more typical that this would be split on a 70/30 basis in favour of the backer but depending on the players experience and abilities it could once again be a 50/50 deal but there would be no make up ie the player doesn't owe you the entry fee at some future date.
So now we have to consider what to look for in a player before deciding whether or not to back them.
But why should a player want backing? He is either broke or hasn't the bankroll to cope with the volatility and this could have come about for a number of reasons but I see little point in going there or discussing why the player needs or wants the backing.
The first kind of question I would need to think about would be whether the player was a winning player or not?
It always amazes me how mediocre losing players make up the overwhelming majority of those requesting backing and as such it is clear they represent loss making propositions so I have to ask how much money the person has made over the last year and would want a breakdown of how much he has paiud in entries and how much he has cashed. If he can't do this or says he has no records then it makes it a lot easier to say no and if they do have accurate verifiable figures then you can have a decent guage as to how much of a profit they are likely to return.
In todays game where so much is taken out in entry fees and tips for the dealers (typically totals around 9-13% and in smaller events considerably more) I find it very hard to believe that there are many players who return a profit. If on top of this you have to give away 30% or more to the player of returns then it becomes nigh on impossible to believe anyone at all makes a profit.
If we assume that 10% is taken out of a tournament prize pool then if you played 100 x $1000 buy in tournaments of 100 players as an average player you would expect to cash 10% of the time if 10% of the field were paid but this would only give back to you $90k of your $100k in total entriesas the other $10k is removed for fees and/or staff.
So to overcome this $10k deficit you are going to have to perform around 11% better than the average player which means as an approximation that you are going to have to be 2 standard deviations better than average to simply break even which means that only 5 of the hundred players who play thiis series of events is going to break even or do better than break even. If on top of this you have to give 30% or more to the player as a backer it becomes pretty clear that backing players is going to be a monster loss making proposition.
Of course if you have a significantly better than average player or play in a tournament where there are large numbers of below average players then you are going to have a chance as a player and backer of making money but still whatever the scenario returning a profit is going to be a really tough thing to achieve.
I just wondered what criteria others would use before bankrolling another player in tournaments because despite having done so myself in the past have always done it more as a favour to a friend rather than as a backer seeking a profit because quite frankly I have never come across any deal that was even remotely viable to the backer.
In a cash game it is a far simpler decision making process because it is easy to ascertain whether or not a player is a winning player or not and those kinds of arrangements are a lot easier to manage.
Any comments any may have on this area of poker would be welcomed.
BTW I am not talking about players exchanging small percentages of themselves with each other as this is a common practice and used to negate some of the extreme volatility in tournament play results.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: AndrewT on September 25, 2006, 10:12:49 AM
I think the idea of backing players in tournaments is a remnant of the 'olden' days of tournament poker when there would genuinely be a lot of dead money in events. The knowledge of fundamental basic, solid tournament strategy was not as widespread and many players would be genuinely out of their depth as they would play their standard cash-game strategy and not be able to work out how they could not accumulate chips
Stu Ungar's record of winning a third of the tournaments he entered could not even be approached today, even though there are better tournament players than him, simply because the median entrant in big events has more chance to win these days. Previous 'bad' players would allow themselves to get blinded off/pushed out of pots - the average player today isn't afraid to stick it in and, if the luck runs his way, that's a strategy which can't be countered with skill.
The edge that the best players in the field have has reduced with time, as events have more players, and thus relatively faster clocks etc, which improves Joe Luckbox's chance of winning even more.
Having said all that, Harry, I am more than willing to sell you 20% of myself in next year's WSOP for the bargain price of $4000... :)
Stu Ungar's record of winning a third of the tournaments he entered could not even be approached today, even though there are better tournament players than him, simply because the median entrant in big events has more chance to win these days. Previous 'bad' players would allow themselves to get blinded off/pushed out of pots - the average player today isn't afraid to stick it in and, if the luck runs his way, that's a strategy which can't be countered with skill.
The edge that the best players in the field have has reduced with time, as events have more players, and thus relatively faster clocks etc, which improves Joe Luckbox's chance of winning even more.
Having said all that, Harry, I am more than willing to sell you 20% of myself in next year's WSOP for the bargain price of $4000... :)
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 11:01:56 AM
Quote from: AndrewT
Having said all that, Harry, I am more than willing to sell you 20% of myself in next year's WSOP for the bargain price of $4000...
[/quote
Having said all that, Harry, I am more than willing to sell you 20% of myself in next year's WSOP for the bargain price of $4000...
[/quote
I think I'll pass on that offer:-)
However I had an interesting discussion with a few friends in Vegas just prior to the start of the main event at The WSOP this year and we kind of came to a concensus view that the main event was probably the only one where you could give a player a free 30% freeroll for putting them into the event.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: AndrewT on September 25, 2006, 11:10:32 AM
You're right Harry - the opening day table I got in the WSOP this year was one of the easiest I have ever sat down at, and that includes £20 freezeouts. The sheer number of players with no prior live experience creates a lot of chips up for grabs and provides a good overlay for the pro.
Of course, given the size of the event, and that there's only one a year, there's a high degree of variance in backing someone in it.
Of course, given the size of the event, and that there's only one a year, there's a high degree of variance in backing someone in it.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 12:36:02 PM
Unfortunately despite having a relatively easy table on day1c it still didn't stop me from going to the rail just after the dinner break:-(
No hard luck stories just the way it is sometimes.
No hard luck stories just the way it is sometimes.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 01:31:09 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: AndrewT on September 25, 2006, 01:39:37 PM
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
Tikay, would you be interested in taking up my offer 20% of me at next year's WSOP?
The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed.
Oh... :)
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: thetank on September 25, 2006, 01:41:07 PM
There was me listning to his advice on what constitutes a good investment, and it turns out he's got money in blonde! There goes my faith. :D
I'm off to back a pissed GlasgowBandit at roulette. ;goodvevil;
I'm off to back a pissed GlasgowBandit at roulette. ;goodvevil;
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Newmanseye on September 25, 2006, 01:42:15 PM
Well it tikay is taking %'s of people, I am playing in the $0.60 freezeout on blonde and i am offering 30% for $2.00 ;goodvevil;
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: matt674 on September 25, 2006, 01:44:18 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: boldie on September 25, 2006, 01:45:23 PM
I'm off to back a pissed GlasgowBandit at roulette. ;goodvevil;
rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: AndrewT on September 25, 2006, 01:48:41 PM
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
Matt, I am prepared to stake you in your next tournament - please accept this investment.
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 01:55:12 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Colchester Kev on September 25, 2006, 02:01:04 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
Stop it grandad, you are embarrassing me :D
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on September 25, 2006, 02:02:07 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
I dont get why you would say your embarrassed to say you made some money out of those? You saw something you liked in the player and gave them there chance by "backing" them to a certain extent. You deserve your share for helping give them the chance too.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: matt674 on September 25, 2006, 02:02:57 PM
Matt, I am prepared to stake you in your next tournament - please accept this investment.
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
Lol, thanks mate - i'll be playing the $50 p/l hold'em on pokerstars at 8pm so if you could get the bananas to my treehouse before then that would be great!! :)up
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
So basically you knew them as friends before you took to the poker table? You didn't spot someone in your local casino and think "that person has talent and potential, maybe i can "invest" in his future?"
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on September 25, 2006, 02:04:35 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
Stop it grandad, you are embarrassing me :D
LOOOOOOOOOOOL rotflmfao rotflmfao
Title: Back to the question....
Post by: Simon Galloway2 on September 25, 2006, 02:19:53 PM
Harry, a few points to make:
1. No doubt most propositions are losing ones - period.
2. There are a slim breed of player that probably could show a profit against the vig - but never have any money due to other leaks. You could possibly have a great investment there, but I imagine trust issues crop up with a player with a sickness for other -EV gambling...
3. There were murmurs of staked players being used as chip horses - told to make steady progress in the tourny and then dump any time the guvnor needs them...
4. Whilst someone might have no chance to overcome the odds in the long run, there are worse short term punts out there. The numbers don't particularly matter, if someone has been running well and decides to take a "$100 shot at $10k" for example, they will probably be able to pick a better horse than the 100/1 equivalent you would need to find at Newmarket to return the same.
1. No doubt most propositions are losing ones - period.
2. There are a slim breed of player that probably could show a profit against the vig - but never have any money due to other leaks. You could possibly have a great investment there, but I imagine trust issues crop up with a player with a sickness for other -EV gambling...
3. There were murmurs of staked players being used as chip horses - told to make steady progress in the tourny and then dump any time the guvnor needs them...
4. Whilst someone might have no chance to overcome the odds in the long run, there are worse short term punts out there. The numbers don't particularly matter, if someone has been running well and decides to take a "$100 shot at $10k" for example, they will probably be able to pick a better horse than the 100/1 equivalent you would need to find at Newmarket to return the same.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 02:26:36 PM
Matt, I am prepared to stake you in your next tournament - please accept this investment.
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
Lol, thanks mate - i'll be playing the $50 p/l hold'em on pokerstars at 8pm so if you could get the bananas to my treehouse before then that would be great!! :)up
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
So basically you knew them as friends before you took to the poker table? You didn't spot someone in your local casino and think "that person has talent and potential, maybe i can "invest" in his future?"
I befriended them via Poker - usually as newbies who needed a lttle help to realise their potential.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 02:28:12 PM
Thanks Harry. I pretty much concur with your comments, except, I think you've omitted one aspect where backing players has merit.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
I refer to newbies, or relative newbies, who clearly have the game to succeed, but need a little help to get on the merry-go-round.
I can think of at least two players who are doing very well now, who I supported via "investment" in their early days. Maybe they would have made it without help, we will never know. But it's immensely fulfilling to go this route, & the "dividend" - cash apart - lasts for ever.
So I've backed several newbies, & if I saw someone who I thought would benefit from such help, I'd do it again.
But as to your main point, you are entirely right. The shameless parasites who wander round before Tourneys "wanna buy x% of me?" need not bother asking. I would never back anyone who asked to be backed. I can lose my money without their help, & enjoy myself along the way!
Glad you are a lttle better Harry, you were not too well last time we spoke.
For the record, Harry is a shareholder in blonde, & has been 100% supportive throughout. We are proud to have him on board.
So if you have never backed anyone who has asked to be backed i take it then that it was you who approached the newbie to offer "investment"?
If this is the case then how did you go about it, did you just go right out and offer at the cardroom?
Also what was it that you saw that made you feel that your money would be well "invested"? (i.e. what do i need to do to get someone to "invest" in me ;))
They were & are friends. And I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I made a lot of money out of those investments, though not always from the original deal. They still "swap" with me to this day, how satisfying is that? My judgement as to their ability & character was spot-on. Makes a change, for me!
I dont get why you would say your embarrassed to say you made some money out of those? You saw something you liked in the player and gave them there chance by "backing" them to a certain extent. You deserve your share for helping give them the chance too.
That's EXACTLY the point. It was not done as a means of making money, there were other motives. The money was a bonus, but a welcome one. Win-Win!
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 02:30:28 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 02:32:24 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
But I deserve hijacking especially as I am the one that usually wonders off topic.............
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 02:35:50 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
But I deserve hijacking especially as I am the one that usually wonders off topic.............
It's almost obligitary in this place Harry!
Have you had any situations similar to mine, where you've recognized a talent & got involved? I imagine they queue up to ask you!
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 02:46:05 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
But I deserve hijacking especially as I am the one that usually wonders off topic.............
It's almost obligitary in this place Harry!
Have you had any situations similar to mine, where you've recognized a talent & got involved? I imagine they queue up to ask you!
I think there are a lot of fabulous young players around and I would be queing up to back them except that they are all probably better than me and making zillions already on the internet - haven't quite personally mastered winning consistently on the net yet:-(
I am amazed how many there actually are and I confidently predict that in five years the USa will be teaming with 20-25 year olds none of us have heard of.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: matt674 on September 25, 2006, 02:51:09 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
But I deserve hijacking especially as I am the one that usually wonders off topic.............
It's almost obligitary in this place Harry!
Have you had any situations similar to mine, where you've recognized a talent & got involved? I imagine they queue up to ask you!
I think there are a lot of fabulous young players around and I would be queing up to back them except that they are all probably better than me and making zillions already on the internet - haven't quite personally mastered winning consistently on the net yet:-(
I am amazed how many there actually are and I confidently predict that in five years the USa will be teaming with 20-25 year olds none of us have heard of.
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 02:53:56 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
But I deserve hijacking especially as I am the one that usually wonders off topic.............
It's almost obligitary in this place Harry!
Have you had any situations similar to mine, where you've recognized a talent & got involved? I imagine they queue up to ask you!
I think there are a lot of fabulous young players around and I would be queing up to back them except that they are all probably better than me and making zillions already on the internet - haven't quite personally mastered winning consistently on the net yet:-(
I am amazed how many there actually are and I confidently predict that in five years the USa will be teaming with 20-25 year olds none of us have heard of.
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
Correct. We must not forget the older players, eh? We'll all be old one day.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Royal Flush on September 25, 2006, 02:57:10 PM
...but we have hijacked Harry's original Post now - let's concentrate on that, please.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
I'm a bit hippy-happy today, totally intoxicated by such a stunningly wonderful weekend.
But I deserve hijacking especially as I am the one that usually wonders off topic.............
It's almost obligitary in this place Harry!
Have you had any situations similar to mine, where you've recognized a talent & got involved? I imagine they queue up to ask you!
I think there are a lot of fabulous young players around and I would be queing up to back them except that they are all probably better than me and making zillions already on the internet - haven't quite personally mastered winning consistently on the net yet:-(
I am amazed how many there actually are and I confidently predict that in five years the USa will be teaming with 20-25 year olds none of us have heard of.
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
Correct. We must not forget the older players, eh? We'll all be old one day.
::)
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: The Camel on September 25, 2006, 03:15:13 PM
I disagree backing players is a long term losing proposition.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 03:37:45 PM
[/quote]
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
[/quote]
These new agei laws seem ridiculous to me (not arguing their merits just that they are so impractical to implement).
What is going to happen in reality? Is there going to be a governement department that goes around fining companies for not employing their quota of oldies?
Does this mean that there will be no place on application forms for age and date of birth?
I have always been an advocate of "The best person for the job" regardless of age sex creed or colour etc etc and its a company's own loss if they ever deviate from such an employment practice.
Now back to poker..........
Tikay is not only old but also only a poker player in his own mind ;-)
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 03:43:30 PM
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
[/quote]
These new agei laws seem ridiculous to me (not arguing their merits just that they are so impractical to implement).
What is going to happen in reality? Is there going to be a governement department that goes around fining companies for not employing their quota of oldies?
Does this mean that there will be no place on application forms for age and date of birth?
I have always been an advocate of "The best person for the job" regardless of age sex creed or colour etc etc and its a company's own loss if they ever deviate from such an employment practice.
Now back to poker..........
Tikay is not only old but also only a poker player in his own mind ;-)
[/quote]
Sigh......
Listen, I got asked got my autograph yesterday, inside the front cover of a Poker book. Truly! Another player had already signed it, & I was curious as to who it was - I'm thinking, who else am I associated with if I sign this?
Answer? Malcolm "the Rock" Harwood. Guess the guy wanted to balance out the ageism thing.....I mean, Malcolm IS old.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 03:57:20 PM
I disagree backing players is a long term losing proposition.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
Long term winning players (imho) are few and far between but the problem is also one of identifying such players and it is not easy to find such players from a volatility point of view if nothing else.
I thnk Keiths criteria are musts and you would have to be crazy not to have all three of his conditions met before deciding to put someone into a tournament.
However even when Keiths criteria are met there is still the argument of how much the backer and how much the player should get.
Longer term you can give the player a bigger percentage (especially if there is a make up figure where the backer gets his money first) but what percentage can you realistically afford to give?
If you have a 20% edge after the juice in a tournament you still can't afford to give away 30%-50% of the returns that the player gets which are the normal figures banded about and sought by players seeking backing. This is why make up figures are important and should be carried over.
As for selling part of yourself in a tournament at a premium again no problem but if we take Keiths example he valued himself at $37500 for a $25k tournament. Now I am not going into the arguments of whether or not Keith is worth this amount (he is indeed a fine player) but the Belagio $25k tournament has not got that much dead money in it as I feel certain that 400 of a 600 player field there would have a shot at winning which would make him a fair bet but not a great value bet. (Please note I am not taking a dig at Keith just using figures to demonstrate a point and these are not difinitive figures).
In the WSOP main event however I would have to say that Keith would of course be worth more percentage wise and have to say he would be worth $20k+ for a $10k event as I doubt that more than 4000 out of the 8000 had a chance of winning.
Perhaps then the question should be a mathematical one of how much you give a player if you provide 100% of the entry dependant on his expected profits in the long run (assuming we can of course anticipate the long run).
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: totalise on September 25, 2006, 04:07:49 PM
Quote
Perhaps then the question should be a mathematical one of how much you give a player if you provide 100% of the entry dependant on his expected profits in the long run (assuming we can of course anticipate the long run).
yes, it is a mathematical question, but the intrinsic problem is one of skill. The player will in nearly all cases over-value their skill.. I bet if you asked every single WSOP M.E player this year what their seat was "worth" in terms of EV, the sum total of all the players self-evaluated EV would come somewhere close to $150 million!
Notoriously all the horror stories of backing deals come from the backers side, and not the horse's side...which is pretty telling. The mistake they make is one of EV.. if someone has an expected ROI of 100%, then they think that splitting the profit 50/50 means that each side is getting a fair deal, but in short-term deals the backer is absorbing 100% of the loss without much hope of make-up, so its heavily weighted towards the player, and the problem with long-term deals is that its hard to pin someone down to a long term deal.
If you have a deal where you play tournaments with make-up and run up a $200k deficit (which in this day and age isn't overly difficult) then its too easy to get into disagreements/arguments to try and get yourself dumped from your current backer, maybe they would even start to dump chips and lose on purpose. Anything to renege on the deal.. then they can get a new deal elsewhere, free of the $200k burden.
I think the only really logical deal for backers to try and get a reasonable return is on a tourney by tourney basis, but the problem there is that the players aren't willing to play for a percentage that is fair on the backer (something like 20--25% or so)
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Simon Galloway2 on September 25, 2006, 04:14:00 PM
I disagree backing players is a long term losing proposition.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
My only 2 rules are trust and never pay over 1:1 for a slice.....
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: bobby1 on September 25, 2006, 04:31:46 PM
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
These new agei laws seem ridiculous to me (not arguing their merits just that they are so impractical to implement).
What is going to happen in reality? Is there going to be a governement department that goes around fining companies for not employing their quota of oldies?
Does this mean that there will be no place on application forms for age and date of birth?
I have always been an advocate of "The best person for the job" regardless of age sex creed or colour etc etc and its a company's own loss if they ever deviate from such an employment practice.
Now back to poker..........
Tikay is not only old but also only a poker player in his own mind ;-)
[/quote]
Sigh......
Listen, I got asked got my autograph yesterday, inside the front cover of a Poker book. Truly! Another player had already signed it, & I was curious as to who it was - I'm thinking, who else am I associated with if I sign this?
Answer? Malcolm "the Rock" Harwood. Guess the guy wanted to balance out the ageism thing.....I mean, Malcolm IS old.
[/quote]
Sorry but I have this mental image of you growing up to look like Malcolm Harwood in your old age!!!
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: tikay on September 25, 2006, 04:33:41 PM
with the occasional thirty-something "no-name" internet player thrown in too!!
better be careful with these new age-discrimination laws due to take effect soon - you cant say things like "i'd back fabulous young players" :D
These new agei laws seem ridiculous to me (not arguing their merits just that they are so impractical to implement).
What is going to happen in reality? Is there going to be a governement department that goes around fining companies for not employing their quota of oldies?
Does this mean that there will be no place on application forms for age and date of birth?
I have always been an advocate of "The best person for the job" regardless of age sex creed or colour etc etc and its a company's own loss if they ever deviate from such an employment practice.
Now back to poker..........
Tikay is not only old but also only a poker player in his own mind ;-)
Sigh......
Listen, I got asked got my autograph yesterday, inside the front cover of a Poker book. Truly! Another player had already signed it, & I was curious as to who it was - I'm thinking, who else am I associated with if I sign this?
Answer? Malcolm "the Rock" Harwood. Guess the guy wanted to balance out the ageism thing.....I mean, Malcolm IS old.
[/quote]
Sorry but I have this mental image of you growing up to look like Malcolm Harwood in your old age!!!
[/quote]
I'll wory about that in 30 years time. (Only jesting, Malc!).
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: The Camel on September 25, 2006, 04:47:21 PM
I disagree backing players is a long term losing proposition.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
I am well ahead backing players and I have won money for people that backed me (Unfortuantely Harry didn't cop the one time he risked a few quid on the Camel)
I have three criteria for backing players. In order of importance:
1 I like the player.
2 I trust him/her.
3 I think it's a winning long term investment.
I rarely look for backing these days as my bankroll is pretty healthy. The one time I did in the last year was for the 25k event at the Bellagio. There I sold 40% of myself for $12,500. I like to think I have an edge of at least 20% of the field and hence I think the backers had a value investment.
Long term winning players (imho) are few and far between but the problem is also one of identifying such players and it is not easy to find such players from a volatility point of view if nothing else.
I thnk Keiths criteria are musts and you would have to be crazy not to have all three of his conditions met before deciding to put someone into a tournament.
However even when Keiths criteria are met there is still the argument of how much the backer and how much the player should get.
Longer term you can give the player a bigger percentage (especially if there is a make up figure where the backer gets his money first) but what percentage can you realistically afford to give?
If you have a 20% edge after the juice in a tournament you still can't afford to give away 30%-50% of the returns that the player gets which are the normal figures banded about and sought by players seeking backing. This is why make up figures are important and should be carried over.
As for selling part of yourself in a tournament at a premium again no problem but if we take Keiths example he valued himself at $37500 for a $25k tournament. Now I am not going into the arguments of whether or not Keith is worth this amount (he is indeed a fine player) but the Belagio $25k tournament has not got that much dead money in it as I feel certain that 400 of a 600 player field there would have a shot at winning which would make him a fair bet but not a great value bet. (Please note I am not taking a dig at Keith just using figures to demonstrate a point and these are not difinitive figures).
In the WSOP main event however I would have to say that Keith would of course be worth more percentage wise and have to say he would be worth $20k+ for a $10k event as I doubt that more than 4000 out of the 8000 had a chance of winning.
Perhaps then the question should be a mathematical one of how much you give a player if you provide 100% of the entry dependant on his expected profits in the long run (assuming we can of course anticipate the long run).
If my maths hasn't failed me, selling 40% of myself for $12,500 actually values me at $30,000.
When I put a mate in a small tournament I usually let them have 50% of themselves. In a larger event it's usually 70:30.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: bolt pp on September 25, 2006, 04:55:50 PM
Guaranteed right; what difference does it make? ;D
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Harry Demetriou on September 25, 2006, 05:21:50 PM
[/quote]
If my maths hasn't failed me, selling 40% of myself for $12,500 actually values me at $30,000.
When I put a mate in a small tournament I usually let them have 50% of themselves. In a larger event it's usually 70:30.
[/quote]
Sorry $31250 to be precise.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: ariston on September 25, 2006, 06:48:41 PM
I think backing players as an investment is overall a very bad idea as has already been outlined earlier in the thread, however backing friends who have lost bankroll down to unforsen circumstances/leaks away from the game is a different thing entirely. In Vegas this year I had a horrible time and by the last week was completely potless and several good friends/blondites offered to buy me into the bellagio daily events etc, I was honest enough to say I wasn't playing well enough and they would be just wasting their money but when you are down you still find out who your real friends are. The other circumstance is when you see a particularly talented player who has other leaks away from the game- certain players have a huge ROI in tournaments but blow all the winnings away from the tournament circuit, these players have terrible bankroll management but would still be a good investment imo. Anybody on here who could afford to wouldn't back Gus Hansen (who has been backed in the past) for a few tournaments? I think if you paid gus into all his tournaments for 12 months you wouldn't be out of pocket at then end of the year.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Royal Flush on September 25, 2006, 07:10:03 PM
I have won money for people that backed me
Can i get a refund then!!! ;goodvevil;
Intresting debate guys.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: Slick Kid on September 25, 2006, 08:00:19 PM
Great thread and l have to agree with the original poster on most points. I started playing in Jan. this year after 8 months on the net and l think lve managed ok but l dont think l could do it the same next year, financially. Ive made numerous final tables and most festivals l played lve cashed but l believe unless u hit a big one u could not sustain this lifestyle without some backing. The one thing lve learned this year is that most of the regular circuit players have bigger EGO'S than bankrolls.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: ifm on September 25, 2006, 11:21:03 PM
I'd be interested to see the "books" at badbeat to see just how their concept has progressed.
I don't mean name players just to see if the model works.
I don't mean name players just to see if the model works.
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: TightEnd on September 25, 2006, 11:26:50 PM
I think backing players as an investment is overall a very bad idea .
Generally, yes
So speaks Mr 0 for 3 here....
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: matt674 on September 25, 2006, 11:34:24 PM
Matt, I am prepared to stake you in your next tournament - please accept this investment.
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
(http://www.dole5aday.com/ReferenceCenter/Encyclopedia/Images/img_bananas.gif)
Lol, thanks mate - i'll be playing the $50 p/l hold'em on pokerstars at 8pm so if you could get the bananas to my treehouse before then that would be great!! :)up
What happened AndrewT? my bananas never turned up and i went on to make the final table!!
You missed out on your cut :'(
lesson 1: never use jungle couriers!! :D
Title: Re: Backing Others in Tournaments (Long)
Post by: GlasgowBandit on December 14, 2007, 01:54:36 AM
So who's taking a chance?