blonde poker forum

I played in the final Wm hill qualifier last night, the less said about my night the better!

However a situation cropped up on my table.

On it is a twenty something Midlander, brash, cocky, self opinionated. Professes to play a lot on the internet and he says his normal live comps are at lower buy ins but he is stepping up to have a shot at this event, as a treat.

Shouts across to his mates on other tables

One example

"Yes Chris, I've just doubled up, muppet called me with AJ when I had AK" The whole table hears

He gives a running commentary after most hands to most players, whether he is in the hand or not..."I knew you had that" "That was a bad bet" etc etc

Whenever he gets outdrawn, which is amusingly frequently..usually by an unfailingly polite Ali Mallu, he goes off one one..swear words, stands up, arms everywhere, stamping feet

All of the rest of the table are polite and indulge him, not wanting to make a scene

Then he really goes off, a short stacked player limps and he raises on the button and the limper pushes. Limper has Ax, loud man has QQ. An Ace falls on the flop.

Fifteen minutes later our loud man is still addressing the limper about his "bad play". Limper looks embarrassed for a while but then begins to verbally fight back. It's unpleasant, unfriendly all round, horrible atmosphere.


My questions:

Do I as a player at the table but not directly involved in a specific hand with the guy have the right to ask a TD to do something if I feel his beaviour is OTT?

What should a TD do if called upon?

What is and what isn't acceptable with regards to this type of behaviour?

I know what id do.. But you would want to be more polite.

Firstly thou the guy may not think or realise he is doing wrong so I think you have a duty to set him straight.

Secondly why the policy of stiff upper lip? If he is annoyin u. Do something about it.

 ;iagree; otherwise he'll think this kind of behaviour is ok and will continue like this in future tournaments

unfortunatly I have been at many a table like this. The whole being loud standing up and running commentary is out of order already.

Yes I would ask someone to shut him up. The TD is the right person to do this...or even a dealer with a back bone can point out that it is unneccesary and uncalled for and he would therefore respectfully request him to keep it down.
If he doesn't keep it down the TD can ask him to leave and give him his buyin back (I have been in two tourneys where that happened and applauded that desicion every time)

I should have said

I am not the stiff upper lip type, I took him aside at the break and explained my concerns.


His reply is not fit for this forum, but I was in essence accused of being a stuffy old git.


After this, what would you have done? (ie he knew what he was doing)

Like I said...TD can kick him out. I don't mind a bit of tabletalk (like Toni G and the sort) I will not stand for being actually being prats and I think the TD's should do something about it.

Even if you're not in the hand you should still ask the TD to deal with the issue because even though you are not in the hand you are still at his table and you're there to play poker, not watch this kid throwing a tantrum every time he gets a bad beat etc.

This happened a few weeks back when I was playing in Ramsgate, the guy was verbally abusive to the young woman and she ended up in tears because of the way he behaved, the manager was called over and he had a word with the idiot causing all the fuss... he was also warned that if it happens again there'll be serious consequences.

This isn't acceptable at all because after all, people are there to play a game of Poker, these idiots should learn that sometime they will get beaten but that doesn't give them the right to call people names, shout, swear, stomp about etc. It's just not on.

Give him his buy in back?!?!?! If he's out of order and wont conform to cardroom ettiquette then he can get sweet fanny adams back and he can be disqualified from the tournament then he has two options next time

1) dont come back

2) come back and behave otherwise he'll be disqualified again

Play him at his own game - make witty, pithy comments taking the mickey out of him, wind him up, send him on mega tilt. If his actions start affecting your play, call the TD over.

Do the dealers not say anything in situations like this?  I appreciate the dealers are there to deal and not get into trouble/fights, but surely they are an extention of the TD and if things get out of hand, should report incidents themselves.  They only need a button under the table so something like that if they want to be discreet about it.

Some things are about poker and some things arnt.

This is a mans game thats played in casinos, what he done was irritating, definitely bad etiquette, rude and offensive.

You have to work out when he crosses the line, if its to do with poker then you get the TD SIMPLE AS, if hes calling me a Muppet to his mates or giving it off the table that has nothing to do with poker does it?

then you have to decide what you want to do about it, the TD can only do so much
but i cant see why i would need the TD for someone telling his mates I'm a Muppet.

Where would some one get the idea its ok to behave like this?

You shouldn't have to do anything.

The dealer should call the TD and dependant on info given by the dealer and issue penalties from there.
Depending on the severity of each individual case.

If it was a first offence and People didn't seem to bothered by it, then I would have a quiet word in his shell (sort of a verbal pre warning)

If it was clear that he had been disruptive and insulting, a time penalty issued and i would explain etiquette to him/her. If he/she didn't realise they would get another chance, if offender starts and refuses to understand, then the next time penalty would be double, and then disqualification would occur :redcard:

Entry money would not be returned after disqualification!

It might not bother you, but to some people this would really upset them, I know if I got called a name at the table I'd feel really hurt and my game would be affected by it.

The guy I mentioned before did the same sort of thing, he was on his phone calling this woman loads of names, saying stuff like "Well she better give me some money when she wins because if it wasn't for her I would've won" and so on.

It's definitely NOT acceptable... why does anyone deserve this sort of abuse?

Hmmm, there might be some women on here that will disagree with that statement.

The dealer, very pleasant and a very good dealer, did nothing and was not asked to do so


The player thought he was doing nothing wrong, but was not challenged in public by anyone

Uh huh! ;iagree;

Calling someone a muppet, can be construed as abusive, and it is possible to disqualify on that point alone.

..And to a degree, therein lies the problem.

Rules need to be explicit. They cant be implied. Bad etiquette, or not, if there is no cardrroom specific rules about swearing/sledging etc, then how can he be punished.

Witness TonyG, on television at the aviation club in paris against Surindar. You wont get much more high profile than that.

Bad Etiquette ? Definitely

Agains the rules ? Well, what penalty did he receive ?

Challenge him to a HU match for bankrolls

It seems like you tried to be reasonable with him, and that failed.. so i guess all you can do is speak to the TD and see what they say. I like your approach, but theres no reasoning with these Tony-G wannabe's. Being a tosspot at the table should be an instant ban from all tournaments, its not difficult to be polite. If they cant win through skill alone, its time they learnt how to play properly.

Live play would be so much more tolerable if there was an 'Ignore Player Chat' option. Failing that I guess an Ipod is the next best thing.

I dont think any given person deserves to be treated like that at the poker table, the point i'm making is that if the guy was as bad as tightend said whats that got to do with poker?

Hes making personal insults that go beyond poker, what can the TD do? i wouldnt want him to do anything i'd want to sort it out myself, i dont care where i am or what i'm doing if someone talks to me like that its my problem and i'd deal with it.

If someone in a public place is calling you a muppet and abusing you in a serious way why would i call the TD, whats he going to do? he will deal out some sort of poker punishment, but whats that got to do with anything, i'm talking about sticking up for yourself in a situation that has clearly progressed beyond poker.

Where would you stop? if the same thing happend in a pub would you get the manager or leave, what about if someone spat at you, hit you, robbed you? when will it end?

When do you take responsibility and do something yourself? if he called me a muppet i dont want the TD involved, anyone else at the table involved, as far as i'm concerned that has nothing to do with poker and that is now mine and his business.

If someone insults me then me and him will sort it out, it isn't anyone Else's business.

Thats part of the problem. Ipod generations if l cant hear it then its ok.

Poppet u need to be less sensitive.

Compare this dude with Chubbs - both trash talk. Both can be offensive. Difference is Chubbs knows who to offend lol.

Alright then, this is PREDOMINENTLY a mans game

bolt


if you are not being directly insulted but a person you do not know feels intimidated by it being aimed at them, would you sort it out in a poker room with cameras and td's to enforce rules?

how?

unfortunatly (and i do mean unfortunatly) GC rules on this seem to be fairly strict.

I would chin the bloke  ;goodvevil;

Let me turn the tables richard

what would you have done if this had happened a couple of days earlier at the APAT

Yay SupaMonkey agrees with me.

Seriously thou, mug him for all his chips an give him a mother of a rubdown. Hopefully outdraw him an then laugh in his face.

I have found myself in this situation a couple of times.  Someone says something well out of line and the first time I think "suppose they must be good mates to do that.." and then second time when it is clear they aren't, I would intervene.

You point out you don't find their behaviour acceptable (sounds like something out of SuperNanny...) and if you don't get the right response you ask the TD/cardroom manger to sort.

As an aside, I am firmly of the belief that one of the dealer's responsibilities is to maintain a positive environment as well as being "just an automaton" that deals out cards.  So, I would expect a dealer to begin to manage the situation, supported by TD as required - and no doubt by the rest of the table.

I think most, or even all, card rooms have rules on view somewhere.  I recall reading the Broadway rules on my first visit, when Dik9 ran the show.  I'm sure it had a paragraph on abusive behaviour.  His behaviour is borderline abusive IMO.  I would quietly point it out to the TD and ask him/her to keep an eye on the player - assuming he was rude enough to upset me.

If he was just mildly irritating (many players are!) - I would just ignore him up until the point he busts out, then state "good game!" a little louder than usual.

APAT rules allow for time penalties away from the table and then disqualification. The Broadway's rules last night would have allowed the TD to take action.


Lets not turn this into an APAT thread though !

The perfect solution - get them to stand on the naughty step until they promise to behave themselves. :D

Don't forget to let down the tyres on his car.

Just have 3 of your boys waitin outside the casino to give him a rubdown of his very own? lol...

I wouldn't, It would have nothing to do with me.

If this person is an adult having problems with one other adult then I'm afraid that i cant help.

If a stranger isn't willing to put themself in danger of potential physical harm to protect themself from ridicule and uphold there dignity then i should? NO WAY!!!

If i knew the person and had feelings for them the i would stick up for them.

If i saw a child being beaten up by and adult in the street i would stop it, but if i saw two adults fighting in the street(unless one was clearly being stamped to death) then I'd concern my self at that time with my own business and where i was going and leave them to it.

tighty, you were there and know whether or not it was more than intimidation for the purpose of poker, from what you described it wasn't, If he did it to me i would tell him to shut his mouth and tell him that i think from the behaviour hes demonstrated he was the Muppet,he'd either shut his mouth and wouldn't open it again, or if hes any sort of person we'd wind up outside and he may bash the shit out of me, he might not, but i would be happy in myself that i didn't allow myself to be completely mugged off by a stranger in public.

IMO its tantamount to leaving your front door open and letting everyone come in and take all your stuff without stopping them.

So your plan to deal with an abusive player is to get your chips in with the worst of it?

well, you have to keep playing like you always do, right? ;)

No no. U get them in when you hit. Iike Ratman. Or Ali. Then laugh heartily when his bullets are cracked by your 73 two pair..

Not trying to sidetrack but on a similar note, what is the best way to deal with a drunk at the table other than taking their chips lol.

Last weekend at the Rendezvous there were several lads that had had quite a few too many (ok, they were bladdered) they were having a great time judging by the noise level and they were lifting the atmosphere.  Later into the evening and MANY more drinks for them all, I got moved onto a table that had a couple of the very drunk lads on.  I was greeted by an extremely drunken monster stack with the now tiresome “I’m going have your chips” …….yawn.  Now once upon a long time ago this would have bothered me but I’m a big girl now, a standard putdown is usually enough to quieten them and I dished out a bit of banter back.  It soon became apparent that this guy had seriously ticked off the table (Yay, I’m thinking) and I could see why.  Drink was getting spilt on the table, he was taking forever to act as he hadn’t realised it was even his turn, or acting out of turn.  Ridiculing people after giving them a bad beat….  I honestly don’t think he even realised it was affecting the players as he was having a great time!

Later still he made a blind raise, then called another players all in (still in the dark and for all his stack lol) it all got a little too tense after he cracked Mr All-ins AA (he had 57o and thought this was just hilarious) I truthfully thought the table was going to get turned over, two hands later I took a large chuck of his stack but got a venomous “Bitch” for doing so.  The table tried to make light of it and every time I won a pot for the next 30 mins I was received a bitch comment (must point out that these comments were not supposed to be offensive, well maybe they were! lol) Thankfully he was out soon afterwards.

Surely we shouldn’t have to put up with that sort of behaviour either!?  Yes there were other lads that had been drinking plenty, but they weren’t being a complete pain in the backside and damn ignorant. The staff either didn't realise it was going on or allowed it, and did nothing about the drinkers until the final table.


(By the way, it didn’t affect me too much as I went on to take 2nd)

Thats really lame what he was doing.

Good thing about my local in Leeds is the numpteys have yet to invade it, and the games are all played in very good spirit. If someone was acting like that I would be split in terms of what to do, not easy.

No because I don't think that me, or anyone else, deserves disrespect...unless it's in a poker sence ;)

But disrespect is subjective and in context.

To me bein called a muppet can never be offensive. Its a term for banter..Like mug or fish.

I dont think its banter if he's telling his mates in front of you that he thinks you're a muppet.

Yeah but this guy that Tightend is talking about sounds as if it was said in an aggressive way, shouting over to your mate "Oi mate, this guy just called my xx with xx... MUPPET" is a bit nasty!

Ok ok... maybe I am sensitive, but that's just me! ;D

So u never call someone who outdraws u a muppet or a fish to ur mates? Cos I do. Maybe not so publically but its not offensive... I wudnt Iike it n I wud say somethin to the guy but I aint so thin skinned to be offended.

If its a self-dealt tournie, then why should the dealer get involved? The table is not his responsibility. It is up to everyone to speak up. If dealers are provided, then it becomes an issue of what one person see's as friendly ribbing others see as being abusive.

Friendly ribbin it wasnt. Thats a given in this situation anyway.

Yes I do, you've heard me!

But I'm not so rude to shout it in front of them

The ideal cure for this kind of behavour is for him to be sat in between Kev Ward and Vinni.

They would soon bring him up to speed on etiquette. 

Thats exactly what i would do. I play live poker for fun, money is secondary. If some prat is going to ruin the atmosphere then i am going to keep winding him up, and mocking his play.


As for Janes experience, i didnt realsie that was even going on! I thought the guy was having a laugh? I have to say i had the most enjoyable night of poker last saturday in that room. So many people had come along to have a good laugh who had never been before. I spent more in the bar after a few of us got knocked out than i did on the rebuys! Still amazed Dave managed to get to the final table though, lol.

Even if you are not directly affected by this guys behaviour, but you can see other people are, call over the TD, have a quiet chat with him away from the table so the TD can assess their behaviour.

If it was me I would have a word with the player, and warn them if they try it again 20mins away from the table and possible disqualification.

To say nothing of the fact that it's just plain rude to refer to someone in the 3rd person when they are within earshot.

He certainly wouldn't get an invite to any of my tea parties. Not sure if it warrants a time penalty though.

LOL, and you wonder why you missed it?!

I'm not talking about Kevin, Dave and him were a good laugh. It was the guy to Kev's right that was being a moron.

They were good.

These 2 lads decided to play the comp, never having played before not realisng they could rebuy etc, they expected a quick 10 minute laugh. Well Dave just hit evreything and had 23k by the break 1k starting stack! They were already both pissed badly and when Kevin got knocked out we pissed of to the bar and got more drunk. Come the final and Kevin trying to persuade Dave to leave the table (he couldnt get it in his head that you cant just leave the table) the best bit when he stumbled up to the final table and said "Dave give me a couple of chips so i can get a drink" about 5 times! Classic!

If someone is behaving in a manner that is socially unacceptable then it is the duty of the host to do something about it. People go to casinos to enjoy themselves and if their evening is spoiled by prats like this one then they tend to choose other forms of entertainment.

The social situation in casinos is rare, where else do people sit round a crowded table with a bunch of strangers? For many people this is part of the fun and most people behave very well in circumstances which can sometimes be very stressful. No-one would play much live if the atmosphere was tense and hostile every time they played.

As someone who used to run pits and supervise tournaments I considered it my duty make sure that the atmosphere was welcoming and friendly for all patrons and staff. Dealing with these types of situations was never easy and subjective judgements had to made as to what was acceptable behavior and what wasn't.




In answer to the questions;

1 - Yes, you have every right to complain, your experience is being spoiled as well as the target of any abuse.

2- If the TD is satisfied that the behavior is unacceptable then firstly the abusive player should be warned. If the behavior persists then the TD can issue a time penalty. If that does not work then the player can be disqualified and barred. If the offence is bad enough then the warning or time penalty can be waived and the abusive player ejected immediately.

3- This is subjective but generally if the behavior is intended to offend or upset another person then it is not acceptable.

Hi Richard,

I hope this didnt spoil the event for you.

A couple of times in the past I have been uncomfortable with the way a player has been treating other players in a comp. On both occasions I have had a quick word with the TD along the lines of' I hope you dont ming me pointing this out to you but the guy in seat x at our table is being a little out if order, could you keep your eye on him' On one occasion the guy carried on and was givien a teliing off and warned about his behaviour and the second time I got annoyed and tried to knock him out.......and he outdrew me and then gave me a rubdown.

This is an excerpt of what "used" to be on display in the Broadway's cardroom? Don't know if it is still there

Ladies and Gentleman,

   Poker is a fair and just game, where everyone starts off as equals. It is essential for the running of a cardroom, that this is understood by all. No unfair advantage can be obtained by any player. “Stroke pulling” will not be tolerated regardless of how insignificant it seems. Any player, who spots an infringement, must report it immediately to the cardroom supervisor.
   Due to growing popularity of poker on the television, people seem to think that it is acceptable to use “verbal” to confuse and obtain an advantage. Although some people feel this is part of the game, it is once again an unfortunate Americanism. This cardroom DOES NOT operate this policy! “Verbal” is not part of our game. The same rule applies to criticism. Every player is allowed to play their cards, as they see fit, without fear of intimidation from others. You pay, you play, you decide, you follow your head and cards, and you accept the flop and most important you accept the outcome, regardless of how unjust the odds go against you, or even for you!

Only a snippit but it gives you a taste of the house rules were/are to ensure a pleasant game of poker. This was seperate from the rules, as nobody read the rules as it was/is 47 pages long, and covered most eventualities. But i felt this was important to keep seperate. Maybe as the TV players and circuit players are regulars, they have waived this slightly, and I know some people love verbal and use it as a major part of the game, but where do you draw the line? I drew it quite close to the top :D (que next debate)
But it was a fantastically friendly cardroom, and think it probably still is.

it didn't thanks, both satellites I played were terrific. Too tough, but terrific!!

name and shame

no, I'm not a fan of that. Its the general principles of the situation that interest me and had me reflecting afterwards on the right course of action

Hi,

I'd like to report an infringement of these rules. It has come to my attention that many people are reading books in order to get an unfair advantage at the table and I am no longer competing on an equal footing. Also, some people have been extremely underhanded in comparing their hand histories and analysing their play on forums on the internet in order to increase this advantage-gap!!!

This must stop, and I would like anyone found to be participating in such rule breaking activities to be ejected from this equal chance cardroom immediately, without refund.

 :D you been colluding with Tank? :D

As one who likes a bit of verbal at the table it is a pity I was not there. If he is calling people muppets etc. he needs slapping down publicly.
My two favourite ones for this are as follows
"Do you come with a volume button?"

or you could use the following

"Where are you from?"

Bricket Wood

"Bricket Wood....I know Bricket Wood it is where the pigeons fly upside down because there is nothing worth crapping on"

Of course if the subtle approach does not work i have been known to threaten.............with some success

Are you sure it was BB3 you won, not Opportunity Knocks ?
 ;nana; ;nana; ;nana;

If he had been at your table would he have managed to get a word in anyway?  ;goodvevil;

;)

Sorry, but am I the only person to see this as a funny image?

On a serious note though, this guy is obviously suffering from grand dellusion. The reality of what he is, and how others perceive him are two different things.  Depending on my mood I either inflate their ego or destroy it.  Both are very effective in their own way.



If anyone calls me names and I do not respect their opinion it does not bother me at all.  If I think of someone as a lesser being then myself, then frankly they can think of me what they want.  In poker when I play and people don't give me respect for my game I make more money.

I think of it that way; if I walk on the street and there is a huge dog poo on the pavement, i try to avoid it and ignore it; the same applies to people that i don't respect. 

I have to admit when i first read it it did make me chuckle because you can just picture Ali Mallu taking it all in his stride like water off a ducks back!!  :D

And some people are paid to clear it up, and some people feel the need to clear it before their children catch a disease off it.

And some take a gun and shoot the owners of those dogs......

So shall we kill his wife :D

I don't believe he has a wife, and if he has, instead of shooting her one should rescue her and introduce to some nice guys...