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Title: Right or wrong? Post by: suzanne on October 02, 2006, 01:33:49 AM I could be posting quite a few hands on here in the next few weeks till I get to the bottom of where Im going wrong.
Ive have just played in the blonde $1k freeroll, didnt have great hands, made steals at the right times etc and was up to 9k in chips with roughly 36 left so im positioned 12th (I think), so im thinking sit back, fold everything and get some cash coz im skint. Pay out was last 18. Im blinding away and now there is 24 left and im 20th so Im thinking make a move or cross fingers that some other mug does...then I get this hand. MTT Table 2 12070528-107 Holdem No Limit 400/800 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Hand Start. [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 1 : 2jjs has $13,270 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 2 : weeeewilly has $20,940 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 4 : wigflipper has $22,195 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 5 : pokker1959 has $14,790 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 6 : iamcruisin has $8,385 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 7 : samytips has $480 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 8 : MissHoolie has $6,310 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 9 : purplelily has $5,980 [Oct 2 00:05:04] : samytips is the dealer. [Oct 2 00:05:04] : MissHoolie posted small blind. [Oct 2 00:05:04] : purplelily posted big blind. [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Game [107] started with 8 players. [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Dealing Hole Cards. [Oct 2 00:05:04] : Seat 8 : MissHoolie has Qs Ts [Oct 2 00:04:39] : 2jjs folded. [Oct 2 00:04:43] : weeeewilly folded. [Oct 2 00:04:44] : wigflipper called 800 [Oct 2 00:04:44] : Stakes: 400/800 Current level: 8 Level up in: 4 min. Break in: 51 min. Players : 24 [Oct 2 00:04:45] : pokker1959 folded. [Oct 2 00:04:47] : iamcruisin folded. [Oct 2 00:04:47] : samytips folded. [Oct 2 00:04:52] : MissHoolie called 400 [Oct 2 00:04:54] : purplelily checked. [Oct 2 00:04:54] : Dealing flop. [Oct 2 00:04:54] : Board cards [4c Ks 9s] [Oct 2 00:05:03] : Stakes: 400/800 Current level: 8 Level up in: 3 min. Break in: 51 min. Players : 23 [Oct 2 00:05:05] : MissHoolie checked. [Oct 2 00:05:40] : purplelily bet 5,180 and is All-in [Oct 2 00:05:45] : wigflipper called 5,180 [Oct 2 00:05:51] : MissHoolie : nooooooooo [Oct 2 00:05:54] : Stakes: 400/800 Current level: 8 Level up in: 3 min. Break in: 50 min. Players : 23 [Oct 2 00:05:59] : It's your turn. [Oct 2 00:05:59] : MissHoolie has 10 seconds to respond. [Oct 2 00:06:06] : MissHoolie called 5,180 [Oct 2 00:06:06] : Dealing turn. [Oct 2 00:06:06] : Board cards [4c Ks 9s 6d] [Oct 2 00:06:07] : 2jjs : lol [Oct 2 00:05:39] : MissHoolie bet 330 and is All-in [Oct 2 00:05:40] : Under-Raise rules are now in effect. [Oct 2 00:05:41] : wigflipper called 330 [Oct 2 00:05:41] : Showdown! [Oct 2 00:05:41] : Seat 8 : MissHoolie has Qs Ts [Oct 2 00:05:43] : Seat 4 : wigflipper has Kh Kd [Oct 2 00:05:43] : Seat 8 : MissHoolie has Qs Ts [Oct 2 00:05:43] : Seat 9 : purplelily has Ah 4s [Oct 2 00:05:43] : Stakes: 400/800 Current level: 8 Level up in: 3 min. Break in: 50 min. Players : 23 [Oct 2 00:05:46] : 2jjs : gl [Oct 2 00:05:48] : Board cards [4c Ks 9s 6d 9d] [Oct 2 00:05:48] : Seat 8 : MissHoolie has Qs Ts [Oct 2 00:05:48] : MissHoolie has Pair: 9s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : Seat 4 : wigflipper has Kh Kd [Oct 2 00:05:48] : wigflipper has Full House : Kings full of 9s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : wigflipper wins 660 with Full House : Kings full of 9s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : Seat 9 : purplelily has Ah 4s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : purplelily has Two Pair: 9s and 4s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : Seat 4 : wigflipper has Kh Kd [Oct 2 00:05:48] : wigflipper has Full House : Kings full of 9s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : Seat 8 : MissHoolie has Qs Ts [Oct 2 00:05:48] : MissHoolie has Pair: 9s [Oct 2 00:05:48] : wigflipper wins 17,940 with Full House : Kings full of 9s [Oct 2 00:05:52] : purplelily : nh [Oct 2 00:05:58] : wigflipper : y [Oct 2 00:06:02] : Hand is over. Apart from the pathetic allin bet which im sure wig would have made sure I was anyway and i was totally pot committed...was I wrong to get my chips in here? I felt at the time I was not going to make it to the cash, so im beating my head against the wall...was it the right move or not? Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: NoflopsHomer on October 02, 2006, 01:45:57 AM Hey suzanne, once you've hit that flop as hard as you did, you should move all-in straight away, because some of the time the other two players will fold. Although that would not have made a difference here, it is the better play since some people will fold their A9's, middling pairs etc.. Also make notes on the players who like to limp with big hands such as wigflipper here. I can guarantee he hated seeing your hand once you were all-in though.
So you don't do anything wrong really. It's certainly more worthwhile going for the bigger cash in the long run. Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: suzanne on October 02, 2006, 01:54:48 AM Hey suzanne, once you've hit that flop as hard as you did, you should move all-in straight away, because some of the time the other two players will fold. Although that would not have made a difference here, it is the better play since some people will fold their A9's, middling pairs etc.. Also make notes on the players who like to limp with big hands such as wigflipper here. I can guarantee he hated seeing your hand once you were all-in though. So you don't do anything wrong really. It's certainly more worthwhile going for the bigger cash in the long run. I see what you mean but it was a drawing hand after all and I was hoping to see a free card and not commit. I would have been quite happy to have gone allin (and lost) with the other short stack, what im questioning is...was it the right decision with the big stake getting involve too? Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: NoflopsHomer on October 02, 2006, 02:08:30 AM Hey suzanne, once you've hit that flop as hard as you did, you should move all-in straight away, because some of the time the other two players will fold. Although that would not have made a difference here, it is the better play since some people will fold their A9's, middling pairs etc.. Also make notes on the players who like to limp with big hands such as wigflipper here. I can guarantee he hated seeing your hand once you were all-in though. So you don't do anything wrong really. It's certainly more worthwhile going for the bigger cash in the long run. I see what you mean but it was a drawing hand after all and I was hoping to see a free card and not commit. I would have been quite happy to have gone allin (and lost) with the other short stack, what im questioning is...was it the right decision with the big stake getting involve too? Unless one of the two has Aspades x spades you're still getting a good price. You have to move in here, the stacks are so short that there is virtually no chance of you getting a free card. If you were the big stack, you wouldn't check with position here against two short stacks that hadn't shown any strength? Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: KeithyB on October 02, 2006, 02:27:50 AM I don't think it's a bad call by any means Suzanne. In a cash game you'd call it everytime as you're getting odds to do so. You'll hit your flush draw 35% of the time and that will likely win you the hand making it a solid play that wins you money over time.
On reflection though, in this tourny situation, I would have folded for the following reasons. a) I'm certainly behind here, with the all in and call indicating at least one made hand. This means the likely 35% chance of winning the hand (which is profitable in this situation in the long run in cash games ) in fact means I'm exiting the tourny two times out of every three here! b) It's close to the money, only 6 to go, likely 5 after this hand. Although blinds are 400/800 I still have over 5,000 chips and blinds have just passed through me which I think still gives me time to wait for a better situation. c) If I'm going out of the tourny then I want it really to be when I'm putting my chips in first rather than calling with them....especially against two others. Plus there's always a chance of opponents folding when you go all in first. d) I'm still in the tourny and whilst there others could easily get knocked out, even bigger stacks than me! Anyway that's my reasoning but there are plenty better on here than me to offer you advice and I tend to be a cautious old sod in my play at times rotflmfao! Actually it's probably one of those situations where it's correct to call if you're going all out to win the tourny but also correct to fold if you're just trying to ensure you make the money? Suzanne, An interesting point for me is why you personally felt you weren't going to make it to the cash as this seemed to sway your decision? Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: suzanne on October 02, 2006, 03:51:38 AM I don't think it's a bad call by any means Suzanne. In a cash game you'd call it everytime as you're getting odds to do so. You'll hit your flush draw 35% of the time and that will likely win you the hand making it a solid play that wins you money over time. On reflection though, in this tourny situation, I would have folded for the following reasons. a) I'm certainly behind here, with the all in and call indicating at least one made hand. This means the likely 35% chance of winning the hand (which is profitable in this situation in the long run in cash games ) in fact means I'm exiting the tourny two times out of every three here! b) It's close to the money, only 6 to go, likely 5 after this hand. Although blinds are 400/800 I still have over 5,000 chips and blinds have just passed through me which I think still gives me time to wait for a better situation. c) If I'm going out of the tourny then I want it really to be when I'm putting my chips in first rather than calling with them....especially against two others. Plus there's always a chance of opponents folding when you go all in first. d) I'm still in the tourny and whilst there others could easily get knocked out, even bigger stacks than me! Anyway that's my reasoning but there are plenty better on here than me to offer you advice and I tend to be a cautious old sod in my play at times rotflmfao! Actually it's probably one of those situations where it's correct to call if you're going all out to win the tourny but also correct to fold if you're just trying to ensure you make the money? Suzanne, An interesting point for me is why you personally felt you weren't going to make it to the cash as this seemed to sway your decision? Keithy you could not have put it better. Every point you made was running through my head as the table was waiting for me to act. Especially c). To be honest my main objective was just to get some cash in my account and with a flush/straight draw I went allin when I think if I had just folded I would have maybe scraped in. As for why.......I dont know.......Ive lost my confidence at the moment and like homer said if I had went allin on the flop I would have at least shown strength. Its not about the hand as such its more about how i played it. Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: snoopy1239 on October 02, 2006, 08:51:12 AM I think your mistake here is checking the flop and not being the agressor in the hand once the flop arrives.
There's 2,400 in the pot, you're close to the money - I see nothing wrong in moving in for 5k (although I'd bet less to make it less obvious I held the draw). Once the small blind moves in and the second guy calls, you should let the hand go, especially if you are trying to sneak into the money. You must be beat, and although you'd just about have pot odds, you can't be sure that the nut flush draw is already out there, thereby resulting in you drawing virtually dead. So, to conclude, I would have either bet the flop or, if I'd checked, folded to the action behind me. Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: boldie on October 02, 2006, 09:43:41 AM I think your mistake here is checking the flop and not being the agressor in the hand once the flop arrives. There's 2,400 in the pot, you're close to the money - I see nothing wrong in moving in for 5k (although I'd bet less to make it less obvious I held the draw). Once the small blind moves in and the second guy calls, you should let the hand go, especially if you are trying to sneak into the money. You must be beat, and although you'd just about have pot odds, you can't be sure that the nut flush draw is already out there, thereby resulting in you drawing virtually dead. So, to conclude, I would have either bet the flop or, if I'd checked, folded to the action behind me. Yeah I agree completely with snoop on this one. The draw is a raising hand or a cheap calling hand...don't call with a draw for all your chips. It's suicide. In a cash game you could do it but you can refill in a cash game. In freezeout tourney play this is extremely unwise (not to mention poor play when all you wanted to do was sneak into the money) Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: Royal Flush on October 02, 2006, 05:02:26 PM I push pre flop :D
Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: suzanne on October 02, 2006, 06:33:43 PM I think your mistake here is checking the flop and not being the agressor in the hand once the flop arrives. There's 2,400 in the pot, you're close to the money - I see nothing wrong in moving in for 5k (although I'd bet less to make it less obvious I held the draw). Once the small blind moves in and the second guy calls, you should let the hand go, especially if you are trying to sneak into the money. You must be beat, and although you'd just about have pot odds, you can't be sure that the nut flush draw is already out there, thereby resulting in you drawing virtually dead. So, to conclude, I would have either bet the flop or, if I'd checked, folded to the action behind me. Thats what I thought...sigh!! I push pre flop :D :D Thanks for the advice guys. Title: Re: Right or wrong? Post by: matt674 on October 02, 2006, 06:50:25 PM I could be posting quite a few hands on here in the next few weeks till I get to the bottom of where Im going wrong. I'd like to throw my two penneth in but i'd highlight a different area where i think you may have played differently Ive have just played in the blonde $1k freeroll, didnt have great hands, made steals at the right times etc and was up to 9k in chips with roughly 36 left so im positioned 12th (I think), so im thinking sit back, fold everything and get some cash coz im skint. Pay out was last 18. Im blinding away and now there is 24 left and im 20th so Im thinking make a move or cross fingers that some other mug does...then I get this hand. Here is where you could have played it differently, you are lying 12th of 36 and in a decent position - however you still have to lose 50% of the field when chances are you are not that significantly higher than average chip position. Chances are at this stage of the tournament the blinds are getting quite high compared to the average chip stack. There is no way you can successfully sit back and wait until you make the money - there is still too much play left in the tourney before you have made the money. By sitting back you allow yourself to be caught by not only all the average stacks but some of the shorter stacks as well and you are faced with the dilemma that any hand you now play could well be your last. Any bad beat you now receive could well put you out of the tournament as you dont have any chips left in reserve to absorb the blow. I always feel that the latter stages of the tournament is not the time to tighten up - take advantage of the other players who appear to be tightening up, those who are playing just to scrape into the money, steal their blinds at any given opportunity because more often than not they will pass. Keep your stack on the move because then if the worst is to happen and you find yourself on the receiving end of a bad beat then hopefully you will still have enough chips left to carry on playing your "a-game" and make the money. |