blonde poker forum

You take the mantel of Pimpin004 in the hand, villain is me

Seat 1: p0kerwid0 (US$1044 in chips)
Seat 2: Pimpin004 (US$986.50 in chips)
Seat 3: PUSHBOT (US$493 in chips)
Seat 4: roh8888 (US$508.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Mikke32 (US$400.50 in chips)
roh8888: posts small blind US$2
Mikke32: posts big blind US$5

are the stacks, you are playing as Pimpin, and your hand is  Aspades Kc

dealt to PUSHBOT [x-x]
p0kerwid0: folds
Pimpin004: raises to US$20
PUSHBOT: raises to US$65
roh8888: folds
Mikke32: folds

Question 1: what do you do here, and why? your opponent in the hand has played tight so far, blinded down to $480 and then reloaded back to $500 a couple hands ago. He has raising prefop a couple of times and taken it down on the flop once, and lost the pot on the turn once.


Action: You call the raise

----- FLOP ----- [Qs 9h Ad]


Question 2: What do you do here, and why?

Action: you check

Pimpin004: checks
PUSHBOT: bets US$100


Question 3: What do you do here, and why? specifically what kind of hands is villain likely to have re-raised with preflop, and how do they match up on this board, and how do you maximize equity against that range of hands

Action:  Pimpin004: calls US$100

----- TURN ----- [Qs 9h Ad][4d]

Question 4: What do you do know with your AK? and again, why?

Action:

Pimpin004: checks
PUSHBOT: checks


----- RIVER ----- [Qs 9h Ad 4d][6c]


Question 5: What do you do, and why?


Action:

Pimpin004: bets US$75
PUSHBOT: raises to US$328 and is all-in


Question 6: Do you call or fold? and of course, why?

OK...question 1 ..In a five seater tourney blinding down 20$ doesn't make you a rock so I would probably call after my raise...(I wouldn't have raised in the first place as I prefer to slow play them a fair amount on shorthanded tables)

Question 2. I have now called your raise...I quite like the check ...hoping you will raise (and I would think you would after your reraise..).. and I want to find out where I am..The size of your bet will decide a lot.

Question 3  hmm, you stick a pot sized bet on there (slightly less)..I would be tempted to do one of two things. re-raise here..probably ask for an extra 100.. OR, fold. (Thinking you have made the set..the reraise made me think of a pocket pair...and Q's or 9's fit the bill). Say (for the sake of continuation of this hand) I reraise an extra 100$. One of three things will happen..

situation 1; you fold. I take it down...ladida..woohoo and all that.
situation 2; you call. I push the turn. (If you have trapped me with a set..good for you..but I have to bet the turn no matter what comes IMO)
situation 3;  you push...I fold. It's a cash game...yes I would have donked 265$ BUT you would not get an extra 200$ out of me..I'd save that to try and get my cash back off you later as it leaves me with around 700$

Say you flatcalled. (as it's the only situation in which I would still be in the hand)

Question 4 would be a push.

Question 5 does not apply to me...as i would have no desicion to make at this stage.

Preface   : I am a NLHE cash fish.

Preface 2: Some would say the NLHE cash bit in that sentence is superfluous.

Ok, so your opponent has been playing tightly so far. That means his likely raising hand is premium. AK AQ AA KK QQ JJ TT 99. Something like that.
That is his likely range but it is very possible he has just settled into the table after a few rounds and only now is starting to make moves.

Question 1:

 Flat calling seems ideal here. You don't really want to open him up to 3 betting you which you'll almost certainly have to fold. You are out of position which is a shame but to me it makes sense to apply some pot control oop with a drawing hand against a likely strong range.

Question 2 & 3: (unless i misread they are the same question 3 asking for a more in-depth explanation of 2)

Well the flop is excellent for you but given the hand range we applied it is likely you are either way ahead or way behind here (unless he has the same hand, a definite possibility)
I like the check also as it is unlikely he has many outs to beat you if he is behind, and it is unlikely you have many outs to win if you are behind.

Checking thus disguises your hand and allows you to make money off worse hands and may possibly mitigate your losses against better hands ( 99 QQ AA AQ)

Check/call for me then.

Question 4:

Well same as before you know you can't outdraw a better hand unless he has AQ. This card is very unlikely to have helped him. Checking to pick off a bluff/ disguise the strength of your hand seems to be ok, but leading reasonably is probably ok as well. I probably check here and if he checks behind plan on how to get maximum value on the river seeing as i will definitely feel he has KK/ JJ.

Question 5:

I think now i lead. If he was more laggy i might check to pick off a bluff but leading seems good against most opponents as you'll get looked up very often by worse hands the way it's been played which would otherwise chek behind. 100-125 seems good to me.



You lead for 75 and are raised 250. I don't see this as a pass given then its 250 into a 730 pot. The raise is a bit sick off a tight player and it's quite possible you are behind but he played a set sort of strangely (strangely brilliant!)

The good pot odds, coupled with your deceptive check on the flop and the weak lead on the river all point towards a call here i think. This will have given him some psychological ammunition to bluff you.

Definitely profitable to call.

I think it's quite posssible he turns over the same hand.  I think his range is KK(strange river raise) QQ AA JJ AQ(strange turn check) 99 (ditto) AK (the most likely of the premium hands.)

Possible he was mixing it up preflop and on teh flop with something like 66 and got lucky on the river but i think it makes sense to call overall.

If you disagree with this, I refer you to the preface.


PS. The more hands you post like this the better, good post.

PPS If he has 66 though and this is a convoluted bad beat story, shame on you and that's at least 4 x 50p.

1, i call, his re raising range given the information is JJ+ and AK suited. Looking to hit an ace or King and make a bet or possibly check raise (i don't like to check raise with a pot this size though)

2, I bet, i want to find out here what the story is, are you willing to go to the river with your hand. If the player is tight as you describe he will have difficulty re raising with JJ, KK and maybe even AK given your action could well mean AQ.
So of the potential hands we put you on pre flop AA,KK,QQ,JJ or AK we are beating 2, losing to 2 and drawing with one. I make the $100 raise with every intention of folding to a stiff re raise or showing serious caution if flat called.
I hate the check call having gained no information and allowing the potential to be trapped.

3, I'm annoyed that i didn't raise but i still call given that i think it's 50/50 i'm in front and the pot is laying me 2.3/1 ish.

4, I check, if i have played it this way then checking is the only sensible option imo. I want to check it all the way from here. Given the range of hands i put him on i say i am 50/50 to be winning currently and i don't want to commit more dollars if at all possible.

5, Check again and evaluate a call if faced by a bet, given the 50/50 thoughts i can call most bets and think i am making a correct decision.
Given that i actually made a bet and got re raised it royally stinks of a trap and i may be tempted to ditch it on that alone.


Very much looking forward to seeing how my thinking differs to yours.

I'm the villain in the hand, not the one with AK. If I have 66 here I get a credit of £2 from the bad beat pot

Good point.

Logical ****er

I will happily fork out £2 for a good beat story.

Nice post Totalise!  Here's my take on it....

Q1) I've opened for a fairly standard 4x raise ($20) and been reraised to $65.  AA would perhaps make a smaller re-raise here so at present I'm thinking that is a slightly less likely holding than the other premium hands.

I really have 2 options here, re-raise or flat call.  I think I like the flat call as I'm out of position and the relative stacks are fairly deep (oppo has full buy-in on table) so if his image is as tight as it appears, chances are a reraise risks and all in pre-flop coup where I'm likely coinflipping but possibly dominated.  Flat call it is then.

Q2) Yes, I hit the flop!  Chances are I'm ahead now.  Time to check and let my tight opponent bet out so I can re-pop him!

Q3) As expected, oppo bet his hand.  $100 into a $142 pot is more of a defensive bet.  Could be he hates the Ace and is trying to close out the hand now, hoping that I'm playing a pocket pair and don't like the Ace either.  A bet like that also fits a hand such as AQs, although would he have reraised me with that pre-flop?  He's in position so its possible.

Right now my range for him hasn't much changed from before JJ-AA, AQ+, maybe a smaller pair 99 or TT at a push.  I'm ahead of JJ, KK and TT, and behind to QQ, AA, 99 and AQ.  I need to raise here.  If I'm ahead I should win the pot here and now.  If I'm behind I should get information to make me wary.

Pot is $242, so a raise to $200-230 should tell me what I need and leave me some room for escape (although I've still got a tricky decision).  Anything more probably commits me to the pot if I get re-raised and a lot of hands in oppo's range now beat me.
Conclusion: Raise to $200-230 is still my preference.  Looks 'suspiciously small' to worry opponent and his response should tell me where I stand.

Q4) I missed my chance to define my hand by flat-calling before.  Now I'm not sure where I stand, so all I've achieved is building a bigger pot to get attached to.  Consequently I now need to apply some pressure here.  If I lead out I'll get information from my opponent if I'm behind, possibly take it down there and then if I'm ahead.  Checking gives me no real information and probably gets me sucked in further if opponent is ahead and plays it right.

Pot is $342.  Bet of $150 looks good here.  Looks small enough to oppo to be suspicious - he might think I'm trying to milk him with a weak looking bet.  I have to bet out though.

Q5) I checked again.  The turn and river look like 'safe' cards anyway if I'm ahead, but they didn't help if I'm behind.  Truth is, because of how I played it post-flop I've created a tough situation for myself.

So, not knowing where I am in the hand, I now have a choice of a blocking bet or checking and hoping for a check down.

The pot is $342.  Opponent has $328 back.  Is there any amount I can bet that I can fold to if re-raised?  Upto $100 possibly but I still don't know what a reraise means.  A 'tough' opponent might think I'm weak from my check/call -check action and put me to the test.  Truth is if I bet I'm probably still compelled to call.  In that case, all-in is my best option for betting.

If I check, oppo gets a chance to check down if behind and bet if ahead.  However, he gets to define the amount.  He might go all-in, in which case I'm no worse off than if I'd bet out but perhaps can now fold if I think I'm behind.  If he bets a smaller amount I can call and save money compared to leading out.

Because of how I've played this previously, I think checking is now the best option here.  I should have avoided this situation earlier in the hand.

Q6) From Q5 I've given myself the toughest decision by betting small.  The pot is now $745 and I have to call $253.  I hate it, given my range for oppo, but I have to do it on pot odds.  Next time I won't get myself into this mess!

Sheriff

Q1
I call.  I don't like gambling half my stack by pushing all-in.  If he is tight I would put him on AK or PP down to 99 (maybe less at a 5 handed cash table).  Pushing might get him to fold JJ or lower but I would have to have a pretty good read before I decided to gamble.  Can't see him re-raising with AQ or lower.

Q2
Top pair on a co-ordinated flop I lead out with bet of 3/4 of the pot.  If he has JJ, TT, or a lower PP he is done with the hand and you won't make any more money regardless.  If he has Ax you will get a call or possibly a raise if he wants to find out where he is.  If he has KK I would expect a raise, as a flat call tells him nothing about the strength his opponents hand. 
I check and my opponent bets 3/4 of the pot.  Looks like he senses weakness and is taking a stab at the pot.  Would he bet with a set ?  If he thinks I am trap checking then I think this is a very good move.  If  I had nothing I am folding anyway.

Q3
Having trap checked I have got my opponent to take a stab at the pot.  A raise should take the pot if he can't beat A's.  If he has a set he is all in and I have to call.  I don't like the flat call with a top pair hand and because I didn't bet the flop any raise will commit me to the hand if he re-raises me (a raise of 200 would make the pot $537 and he has around $230 left).  I don't know where I am now so I just flat call.

Q4
Christ I hate these situations.  I tried to get clever and now I don't know whether he has a set, A's with a lower kicker, or a lower pair.  He's tight as far as I can tell so his re-raise must mean strength.  Still I've decided to trap with TPTK so lets stick with the plan.
Having decided to trap check with TP there is no reason to lead out now as the 4 is unlikely to have helped him.   I check to see if he takes another stab at the pot.  He checks behind.  He's had taken a stab at the pot and given up on the turn.  He may have a set but it looks like he had a PP.

Q5
The river is unlikely to have helped him either.  With $337 in the pot I would bet $150 here.  If he has nothing he is folding anyway and if he has Ax or KK it is enough to call.  He knows he doesn't have enough to push me off the pot.  A bet of $75 looks like a weak stab at the pot.

Q6
I made a weak looking bet and my opponent has tried to shove me off the pot.  Either way he makes this move with a set or a bluff.  Given that I made what appeared to be a weak move at the pot, I have shown weakness throughout the hand, and my opponent checked the turn after betting the flop this has to be a call.  I have to put him on TT, JJ, or KK given the way the hand played out.

Nice problem.

Sheriff,



I really dont like this reasoning, because you say you are compelled to call...... so if you make a small bet, this is what is going to happen:

a) If I have a big hand, you call, and you lose whatever I have in my stack
b) if I have nothing, I fold OR I push the river
c) if I have a marginal hand, I fold/call depending on how small the bet is

If you push, this is what is gonna happen:

a) If I have a big hand, you lose whatever I have in my stack
b) if I have nothing, I fold
c) If I have a marginal hand, I fold

By pushing the river, you are admittedly making it easier for yourself to avoid a tough decision, but if you have decided that you are going to call a push anyways, then due to the pretty weak nature of your hand, you are going to make a LOT more money in this spot by trying to engineer the betting so that you are the one calling the allin, rather then being the one to push all-in.

Naturally if you are sure that your oppo can call with a worse hand, then jamming is ok, and if you are sure he can fold a better hand, then jamming is ok, but normally neither of these conditions are going to hold given the hand/flop/action.. so your best bet lays in trying to widen villains range as much as possible to increase your equity

The reason for this line now though is that I've created a situation where I have no idea where I am.  Given the range I'm going with I'm behind to more hands than I'm ahead of (and perhaps chopping with another AK).  Therefore, given that I'm committed to any river bet I make then pushing is the best option as it maximises the chances of you folding.

However, checking for me is preferable now because I've created a mindset where I think I'm behind.  If you push, then I'm perhaps not pot-committed enough to fold.  If I do call, I'm no worse off than if I had pushed.

However, if I check and let you bet then its possible you don't push here.  A check down is obviously the best result for me, but any non-pushing bet saves me money.  Given where I think I am in the hand I'm not trying to maximise my win I'm trying to minimise my potential loss.


I think this is what I'm saying.  Are we talking at crossed purposes here?  The line you quoted from me is my argument for deciding how much to bet, if I choose to bet out.  However, I followed it with an argument that says check-call is my best line, which I think is what you're saying here.

Sheriff

Ok, i'm going to reply without looking at the other answers, then i'm going to look at the other answers and wish i had never replied  :D. Bring a tourney player i think my answers are probably going to be wrong for a cash game setting (or probably just wrong).

Question 1: For me there are two options here. 5 handed my oppo is likely to have reraised with JJ+ AK+. I'm not sure if you agree with that range. Thre are really only two options, call or allin. The problem with calling is that the pot will be 130 and my oppo only has 430 left so my street play will be difficult. The problem with an allin is that i am probably stuffed if i am called. However, being 5 handed there is only a small chance that AA or KK are out (is that a valid reason). In a tournament i push here but i think i'll call and be happy to fold if i miss the flop in a cash game.

Question 2: There are a significant number of draws on the board and i want ot find out if my opponent either doesn't believe i have the A (unlikely) or can beat an A-K. That flop is likely to have hit me quite hard regardless of whatever i have raised with so my oppo's call is significant here. I bet $100.

Question 3: I would curse myself for playing the hand this way. I have a vulnerable hand and i may be behind. I call and lead the turn. This shows strength and lets me know where i am in the hand without committing myself to the hand.

Question 4: I bet exactly half of your stack. It gives out very little info and you do not know if i am sucking you in or finding out where i am. You know if you i call if i have you beat and i fold if i'm behind if you push. My problem is what i do if you call. I probably fold to a river bet if you call here.

Question 5: Now i bet. 330 in the pot so lets make it half of your stack. After check calling all the way down and betting on the end you are only rasing me with a monster so i can fold confidently.

Question 6: no, i think you have Q-Q (ish).

Q1. I flat call the re-raise
Q2. I bet , if it is flat called i go to
Q2a i bet, it is re-raised i might fold, if it is folded i don't worry anymore.

Q.3a if i check and is checked behind me,
Q.4a i might be inclined to fold to the all in re-raise.

Q3b, i fire another bet and
x, it can be folded to me
y, is called - i am probably in shit.

At the end of the day i have only top pair with a good kicker, and my hand can only lose to the bluff, not fancy finding out if it was a bluff or not this time round.

it maximizes the chance of me folding when you have the best hand, but on this flop given this action, I dont think theres one hand better then AK that is folding to a jam, thats why I think if you are going to bet.. pushing is by far the worst option. I dont really know what I would do here if I had AK, I dont know if I like checking because it lets big pairs check behind.. a small bet lets them get curious, and it lets them hang themselves if they have junk. What I do know is that I would never ever push here unless i had a solid reason to think they might call with worse or fold better, which given AK in this spot doesn't seem likely.


thats exactly the point I am tryin to make, you are in fact much better off then if you had pushed, because a player in my spot is going to be bluffing here sometimes, so you are increasing your equity a lot by check calling a push rather then pushing.


yes, my point is with regards to how much to bet, if you did indeed bet. I see that you think checking is the best course of action, and it is a flip up between that and a weak-lead. Checking keeps the pot smaller and makes it more likely they are going to bluff, weak-lead forces them to bluff if they have nothing. Against unknowns in retrespect i think checking is best, because you cant be certain enough they are raising here on a bluff, so you are just inflating the pot to let them stick it in when they have you beat, forcing yourself to call.

I have to say its a great hand to analyse, especially the way you've presented it!  Nice job.

nice stuff totalise

i'd flat call pre flop and then look to check raise the flop, if necessary folding if you move all in

the way he has played it he has no idea where he is

By the river, I'd put out a blocking bet in his position

what would you do after pushbot has jammed the river.. insta-call?

probably, but it wouldn't have been much of a blocking bet would it?

essentially he's got himself into a right pickle by the river...check and he's very tempted to call any bet, bet and he doesn't want to fold to the push

the brave move is check fold

Um I'll make a pot size reraise here preflop coz i'm a hyper aggressive maniac then push all in on flop. If he moves in it is a fold for me. 

Any chance to take the pot down out of position I'll take. Um if i do flat call I'm gonna lead out for around the size of the pot something like 125 and slow down if there is much resistance. A smooth call and i'm almost certainly done with it.

If he moves in i mean what are you beating??

I might also fold preflop if he is a total rock!!

I doubt I make it past the flop. I don't like AK in cash games out of position as it is a very tricky hand to play. But yeah I think I 4 bet here about 50% of the time, Call 40%  and fold 10%.

Are you going to give us your thoughts totalise?

if I knew I was going to be interrogated on it like this I would have folded pre flop  :D

oh yes, I forgot about this.


here is how the story ended:

----- RIVER ----- [Qs 9h Ad 4d][6c]
Pimpin004: bets US$75
PUSHBOT: raises to US$328 and is all-in
Pimpin004: calls US$253
----- SHOW DOWN -----
PUSHBOT: shows [4h 8h] (A Pair of Fours, Ace high)
Pimpin004: shows [Kc As] (A Pair of Aces, King high)
Pimpin004 collects US$990 from Main pot

I'll come back to the thread tomorrow and explain why I made the thread and logic behind it, I was cajoled into bowling with my next door neighbours daughter and friends today, so I gotta watch some darts to get back to normality!

Very good hand history Totalise,

If i'm pimpin, i call 80% of the time. 20% i pass against rocks.

I think this Pushbot guy gives it away in his name! Not a terrible jam on the river, but certainly one i wouldn't be making as it definately looks like you have air.

I think Pimpin has made a great river bet, $75 into 300 is quality, just screams to be raised, so once he does that he really shouldn't be passing to an all in.

I think Pimpin has also played the hand very well and is pretty sure where he is in the hand on every street. I dont like Pushbots play at all from the flop onwards.

yup for sure, this is almost always how I play sets in spots like this, so I gues sometimes I need to have air to balance it all out. Its great to see people stacking off with AK so often given this line, it sells such great weakness... and a really good % of the time I have him pizzowned. This time unfortunately i was weak, but thats the way it goes. If he had a weak ace, he probably would have folded to the push, which would be crazy because AK is worth about as much as a rag-ace in this spot, because a good player is (almost) never pushing a single ace, but will push with set/2pr/bluffs. Thats something that should be taken from the thread. Relative hand strength vs an opponents range. Dont just say to yourself "well, if he has X hand he beats me"... ask yourself "well, if he has X hand, would he really play the river in this manner?". It makes river decisions a lot simpler.



yes his river play is fantastic, and its pretty much the point of the post. a real high % of the time people have AJ/A10 or other weak hands and fold to the push, I dont think you should ever be betting this amount and folding to a jam, but people do it all too often, thats why I pushed. It shows a pretty good profit, but sometimes you look like a moran when you get called. Blocking bets are pretty awful plays because they are just so exploitable. If you know how to exploit blocking bets like this guy did, then its a much more profitable river play. Also somewhere earlier in the thread I tried to explain why in my opinion pushing the river is so bad...his bet is perfect if he intends to call a push. If he intends to fold to a push, its terrible.


Yes, in isolation it does look pretty bad, the upside of this is that someone at the table came looking for me after the hand, and sat down to play HU.. and he sure regretted that move an hour or so later. I thought he had a weak ace or was trying a weak value-bet with a Q and would fold to a push. c'est la vie. I certainly dont regret the play, I think against a standard player given that river line, they are folding to a push a high % of the time. If he had checked I would have checked behind (because their flop call and river check is usually indicative of someone who is keeping the pot small OOP and is defo going to showdown) , and if he had bet more (basically displaying the fact that he is calling any push)  I would have folded. Thats something else that should be worked into your game, river play isn't linear... it is based on their actions.. all too often people give up in spots where alternative actions would reap a much better return (most of the time!)