blonde poker forum

How do you play this turn? (I am a little worried about AJ,AQ,JJ,QQ) so check call. Chickened out of a check raise.


Do you value bet the river after my chosen line?


Just come to table, no notes on player

$3/$6 - No Limit Hold'em -
Seat 1: sRaffay ($850.45)
Seat 2: Natrykris ($594)
Seat 3: DunderDaniel ($532.75)
Seat 4: philcroy ($438.60)
Seat 5: ACEharry ($655.70)
Seat 6: chetr ($338.55)
Natrykris has 5 seconds left to act
Natrykris posts the small blind of $3
DunderDaniel posts the big blind of $6
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Natrykris [Ah Ks]
philcroy folds
ACEharry calls $6
chetr calls $6
sRaffay folds
Natrykris raises to $30
DunderDaniel calls $24
ACEharry folds
chetr folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc Qd Ac]
Natrykris bets $48
DunderDaniel calls $48
*** TURN *** [Jc Qd Ac] [As]
Natrykris checks
DunderDaniel bets $120
Natrykris calls $120
*** RIVER *** [Jc Qd Ac As] [9s]
Natrykris ?

hmmm I probably would have check raised the turn...but can see why you didn't. afterall you have trips on a draw heavy board and you could have done your dosh in very harshly.

I would still call the river though. check call for me. (although I might take him for a weaker ace)

what is the thought process I should be adopting in deciding whether this is a value betting spot or not?

Why are you scared to check raise on the turn (allowing him to put you in a situation where you don't know where you're at) but feel that you can value bet the river?

I don't like the check on the turn.  It loses you the initiative in the hand and his resulting bet could mean just about anything (are you beat, is he trying to buy it because he senses weakness, etc, etc).

If you bet on the river its more of a blocking bet than a value bet.  From the way the hand has panned out I don't know if you're ahead or not.  At least by betting you can attempt to control the size of the bet.  If you check then he has the initiative once again.

Sheriff


PS: Auto-post is your friend!  ;scarymoment;

good post....and indeed...for the love of God AUTOPOST...you might be tight but not even autoposting is surely too much.

lol, too late to delete that bit of the original post then

No idea why, I always autopost!

I should clarify that I don't like the check on the turn if you're not going to check raise.  Check raising is fine, although I think I still prefer to lead out as I'm not totally certain I am ahead and its potentially a cheaper way to find out.

as it happens I didn't value bet the river, I thought it was inconsistent with the check call line I had chosen on the turn.

I don't like the check turn either to only check call, which is why I post this hand...it's a quest for self improvement thing.

Afterwards I didn't like the check on the river much either.

In fact, post flop I hated my play all round!

Ah, the perils of masturbating multi-tabling!

the thing is...once you check call the turn you have very little option of raising on the river IMO. a better hand will raise back at you (and probably, if not always, stick you all-in) and a worse hand will fold. (which admittedly would mean you get the pot but it also means you won't get the max out of it)

what happened? you checked the river, he bet and you folded?

check check

at that point, I realised I'd played the turn badly

I don't like the board tbh and that would have slowed me down somewhat.

Although I agree mostly with Sheriff you should have led out on the turn this allows you to fine out where you are, if he re-raises then you can get away from it if he flat calls I am inclined to check/raise the river if given the opportunity.

I am not very good at cash games, but for me the check on the turn and then flat call might be taken as a weakness and also you don't really know  where you are at with your set.
Your set looks vulnerable here on this board, I don't know how often at this levels people call raises with Ax, if not often then perhaps you are behind but to see where you are I would bet the turn.

The guy flat calls you on the flop as he might see that your bet is c.b/ he can have a set already/ 2 pair., then you check so he bets and on the river if you bet again and he goes over the top will you call him? 

If you check and he bets the river do u call it? 

Ok but let's presume that we tighty's opponent, and we flat called your raise with pp or AJ/AQ/AK/QQ/JJ  how would we play the hand?
would we re-raise tighty on the flop? or flat call and then bet on the turn and bet on the river?

if we have full house do we bet here or check after him? and then bet the river?

i have more questions then answers i am afraid.  It just proves that knowing your opponents is an important factor in NHLE.

If I were to call Tighty with AJ. I would flat call the flop. 2 pair is fantastic and it'll do me. (I would assume tighty has an Ace aswell as he raiused pre-flop..or he might have pocket pair)  I don't raise on a board when i have 2 pair..I much prefer to milk it (even though on a draw heavy board it can be a dangerous play)

The turn comes down...Whooptiedooo...I'm doing little dances of joy round my lappie...and HEY, he's not betting....Surely he's got the Ace......ah that's OK. I'll check to. (there is no chance in hell I am betting here if I have the made FH unless I know the other guy is a calling station)


As I didn't bet the turn..I reckon tighty will bet once the river comes down as he reckons I don't have anything that beats him. If he checks the river I'll of course bet..BUT I'd make it a slightly too big of a raise..like i'm stealing the pot so that tighty might be more inclined to call.

edit* to add. IF I take him for a decent Ace on this board and he checks the turn and checks to me on the river and then folds to my raise...I own him for the rest of the game. I would absolutely hammer him with raises every single chance I get.

to be honest i dont like it at all. you are not really beating much in this hand.AQ AJ A9 all have you beat you chop the pot with AK and only beat A10. you are also losing to JJ QQ and the very unlikely 99 and K10.

The only other hands you are beating is any busted flush draw which could be a possibilty the way the hand played. he called your flop bet and after you showed weakness on the turn could be semi bluffing. If he has got AJ/AQ i think he may be inclined to reraise the flop.

If you check raised on the turn i think a flush draw would go away and a hand that was beating you probably pushes and looking at your stacks if you did C/R the turn you would probably be commited anyway.

i think i would fire another decent bet on the turn you would chase out draws and only get called /raised if you were beat but at least you would know where you stand.

He had  7c 6c

I sort of expected him to be on a flush draw, but only from the way you phrased your posts, not from the way the hand developed.

I think your query regarding looking to make a 'value bet' gave this away.  As I said earlier in the thread, a lead on the river is more of a defensive blocking bet than a value bet.  I think, at the time you're in the hand, you probably think the same thing.  Then when he reveals a missed draw you suddenly think you missed a value bet after all.

Sheriff

look at the action preflop, and put him on a range of hands that can call preflop. Make sure you do this honestly, rather then doing it to justify a river bet. base this on experience with him, or of experience with reasonably competent players. Obviously the stronger the read, the more accurate your assesment will be, and thus your actions in the hand will be clearer. Then ask yourself of these hands, how many of them will call a river bet with a hand that I can beat. if the answer is not many, but they figure to have a pretty wide range, then letting them try and steal it on the river/inducing a move by the fabled weak lead is preferable. Its not just a case of how much you are willing to commit to the hand, but a case of how, and calling in these spots gets you a better return on your money then being the bettor, for obvious reasons.

Just to play devil's advocate...

I quite like the check call on the turn from you Rich. If he had something like AT it would have scared him half to death and most likely caused a check behind you on the river rather than a scary all-in. After that call from you he will surely only bet the river now other than with a hand that beats you? I'm not saying I would have check called here but it worked quite well.

The check raise on the turn is the obvious move I think, but you're only committing more of your stack to a loser or scaring him off if you are the winner.

The river is also a check call from me I think.