blonde poker forum

Table 'Eumelos' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: jdoles214 ($1165.20 in chips)
Seat 2: HaveMyCash ($408.25 in chips)
Seat 3: xray ($199.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Chris_55555 ($412 in chips)
Seat 5: lcp3557 ($828.60 in chips)
Seat 6: CharityCse ($565 in chips)
Seat 7: davmcg ($357.90 in chips)
Seat 8: karmync01 ($292.55 in chips)
Seat 9: swiftnick13 ($505 in chips)
swiftnick13: posts small blind $2
jdoles214: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to davmcg [Kd Kh]
HaveMyCash: folds
xray: folds
Chris_55555: folds
lcp3557: folds
CharityCse: folds
davmcg: raises $12 to $16
karmync01: folds
swiftnick13: calls $14
jdoles214: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [Jd 2h Qc]
swiftnick13: checks
jdoles214: checks
davmcg: bets $32
swiftnick13: calls $32
jdoles214: calls $32
*** TURN *** [Jd 2h Qc] [Ks]
swiftnick13: checks
jdoles214: checks

Both players are fairly loose

What's do you do and why?

bet again. One of them is bound to call if they call 32$ on that flop. There's about 120$ in the pot..50$ might get rid of one of them but shouldn't get rid of both.

Well I'm just wondering what sort of hands they can call that 4bb bet with preflop and call the flop bet when out of position.

With a bit of luck you are playing against AK, AA or a lower set. T9 certainly shouldn't be in, although as you are all pretty deep, bb would have massive implied pre to hit the flop, but I think he bets flop .. therefore.. hoping and assuming one of 3 I have mentioned, I can safely bet.

I want to bet enough to get hopefully check raised here. The pot is $144 and I have around $300 back so I like a bet of around $60 here.

Sorry - shouldve included in post that both players are quite loose pre-flop

still I raise. sure A10 and 9T could be in but I am not handing out more free cards. (I take it one of them had 9T sooted and busted you?)

No that didn't happen...

Anyway I checked - my reasons for doing so was that vs 2 players I thought that the str8 was a possibility and I would get stacked.  I'm not sure that there are that many hands that I stack in return, but they will call a value bet on the river.   

There arent many hands that improve with a free card,and there are hands that improve enough for me to get a pay-off from them.  So I just need to avoid another broadway card - (which is an easy fold) and call or raise or value bet the river.

What do you think? 

Surely another broadway card is exactly what you want? Your full house over their trips or fh?

Wouldn't want to give a free card, though, as any ten or ace or nine would send you packing on the river. As boldie said, bet something around the $50 mark, and then reconsider on the river. Lowcard would be nice, broadway would be nice, 9,T,A wouldn't be, but there would still be a fair chance that you're ahead, after all, unless your opponent has AK, he would have had to call $50 on the turn with a gutshot and second-pair or worse - not too likely?

well a 9 or ten or Ace on the river would screw you . but if that doesn't come then you can bet it again.

I however would bet the turn to get more dosh in the pot. When I have top set in a cash game and two willing callers (of whom the only likely holding is 9 T sooted for the straight as that would mean he was open ended on the flop and could be calling your 32$ raise..I don't see many people do that with A10 hoping for the king) and 3 possible danger cards to drop I make them pay to see the river..I don't want to get screwed for free. .

another broadway not there already.


Which of course came......

what do you think of the chat from jdoles?

*** RIVER *** [Jd 2h Qc Ks]

swiftnick13: bets $40 jdoles214 said, "wow" jdoles214 said, "nice runners" jdoles214: calls $40 davmcg said, "kkk" davmcg: folds *** SHOW DOWN *** swiftnick13: shows [Ac Ts] (a straight, Ten to Ace) jdoles214: shows [Js As] (a straight, Ten to Ace)

 :dontask:

thats a terrific fold. I'd probably have stacked off there against loose opponents.

What's wrong now flushy? Will hell freeze over before you ever agree with me?

Would you not expect an out of position T9 to lead on that flop?

I am no cash game expert but i am pretty sure that if you flop a draw OOP on a board that is likely to have connected with the pre flop raiser then it is best NOT to try to swell the pot, and give him a chance to take it away from you before you see another card.

So to answer your question, no. I would expect a c/c or c/r

But we're not betting the draw to swell the pot. Unless we are against  another strong hand as in the example, we may not get paid IF and when we complete our draw. If you are going to play T9 out of position preflop then this is a decent flop for it and leading out may give you an extra way to take the pot. No guarantee to complete, you can still pass if you are priced out with a raise and you are controlling the bet soze. Check call and teh draw is more transparent, so the implied odds of completing are no longer there.

If we lead with T9 we only ever get paid if out oppo slowplays a big hand and we hit. Most of the time we get raised and lose the pot.

If we check call it is more likely we are on a draw but we limit the cost, it has the added benefit that if we miss the turn and it goes check check then we can with the pot with a river bet, a much higher success rate than the bet on the flop, and the pot we win is bigger.

If we check raise we succeed a much larger % of the time, we also win a bigger pot when we do win, of course we lose more when we get 3-bet.

Well played doubleup.

Good thread as well.

I don't have a problem with the check raise, but that didn't happen here either. If you miss the turn after the preflop raise and flop bet it would go check-check almost never.

Most players give up after 3 bullets, like i say it only happens when they have NOT connected, just like the flop leadout.

Connected or completed? Where was teh 3rd bullet? Preflop ... flop ... check. Nasty 3rd bullet that check.

My bad, i meant most players never fire the 3rd.

Rob (Highstack), regarding playing T9 OOP on this flop (in a full-handed cash game:)

If the pot is unraised pre-flop, and there are three or less other players in the hand, then I would recommend betting out, typically a 2/3rd pot bet.

Given that it's been raised pre-flop, a check/call would be my preferred move. You're hand is disguised well, so you should have excellent implied odds if you hit, however you should be trying to keep the pot as small as possible until/unless you do hit. This more passive play is also more likely to keep the third player in the pot (which is want you want) if he has a good but not a monster hand.


Doubleup: You HAVE to bet the turn here (despite the fact that you were behind this time.) These are hands that you have to be prepared to go bust on. Anyone who is not prepared to lose a full buy-in in this situation, should probably move down in stakes. You can't legislate for players playing a hand this poorly with ATs. In most situations, you will be well ahead here but still vulnerable to a lot of cards (any 9, T or A) You want to bet big enough so that the only callers you get are those with made hands already (i.e. hole cards: JJ, 22, QQ, QJ, KQ) who will think their set/two pair is good. Therefore you should be betting big here given that all three players still have plenty back. I'd bet close to a pot sized bet, or even over bet it.

The problem with this as you rightly point out is that if I bet I have to overbet - because if I bet less there are a lot of draws that will still call and wont pay me on the river unless we both improve and the scary rivers will still come making it difficult for me to call or bet if checked to.  I would def bet if it was heads-up, but vs 2 players likely drawing on the flop (AQ/KQ wld prob have bet to "see where they were" or crsd) I thought there was a reasonable chance that the turn had helped one of them, I therefore get stacked as I have to overbet or they fold and I win a small pot.

Checking on the other hand is likely to get elicit a bet or let me value bet.  QQ/JJ were not very likely hands as I wld prob have been reraised preflop - certainly raised on the flop for fear of me having AK.  2pr was a possible hand but I dont think I stack them off on that board.  I certainly get a good amount from them on the river if I check.

I'm actually rather tired of the philosophy that "this is a hand you go broke with" as too often my opponent has exactly the worst hands in their range.

My overall take on this hand was that the pot wasn't big enough to merit risking my stack to defend it.  I was happy to either lose some on the river or win a bit more.  As it was I did get lucky and didn't lose anything more.

You don't HAVE to overbet, but you do have to bet big, and you can not be afraid to do so. You will very rarely be behind in this position, and giving free cards here is massive -EV.

QQ and JJ are likely holdings, and certainly more likely than AT. (Players re-raise pre-flop far less in full-handed cash games with these pairs than short-handed cash or Tournament play, and with good reason.)

The philosophy is not "this is a hand you go broke with." It is "this is a hand I have a very good chance of breaking my opponent with, however they is a small chance he may get (or may have got) lucky."

As I mentioned, there are 5 holdings that you are far more likely to be up against than AT, and players are going to call any large turn bet that you make- with them either drawing dead or with one out for quads. If you give a free card, and one of the many scare cards comes on the river, then you are going to win far less than you should do against these hands- and even risk being bluffed off the pot.

theres zero chance that I'd ever check in this spot, and I think its a really bad play to do so. Sure, there are hands that beat you, but theres also a shit load of hands you beat, that are willing to either get it in before the river is nasty, or try and take the pot away from you on a scary board.