blonde poker forum

Just found this on 2+2. Pretty interesting read, could be wild exaggeration but who knows?

"Heard the following the other day from a friend of Ram Vaswani, who plays golf regularly with Phil Ivey in Vegas:

Marc Goodwin, a very self-regarding semi-successful tournament player (and ex double-glazing salesman) plays off scratch (zero handicap) and has been very boastful of his friendship with Ivey and how he has made lumps of money playing golf with him over the last year or so.

He, Ram Vaswani and Eric Sagstrom (Eric123) arranged to play a round with Ivey in Australia. Vaswani plays off around 5 I believe and Sagstrom is a decent player. Whilst arranging the strokes Ivey was to be given and the bets to be wagered Ivey was asked how much he had been playing in the few months since they had last been able to play together. He claimed he hadn't been able to play much at all due to all the poker he was playing and was accordingly given a generous advantage and off they went.

After 7 holes Goodwin was down $450,000 and suddenly erupted in fury at Ivey, claiming he had cheated them and stormed off the course. Sagstrom was similiary infuriated but carried on for another 2 holes before getting to the same amount down and he too left the course with a lot of animosity. Vaswani(one of the more fearless gamblers in the world and an honourable chap) finished off the 18 holes and ended up owing $900,000. Apparently he hasn't got that kind of money and so negotiated some sort of settlement with Ivey with the intention of paying.

The other two have no intention of playing and there is now bad blood between them.

Phil had omitted to tell them that he had spent the last few months practising around 3 hours a day and getting the best coaching.

Is this one of the great hustles? Goodness knows what the total could have been if all three had continued to play all 18 holes (all tilted up)

Should they pay up? "

Damn right they should.

I would like to be as semi-successful.

I dunno playing off a false handicap is akin to palming aces, cheating!!!!

very much agree.

Well, Vince Van Patten does call him "The Tiger Woods of Poker" 

ok few miss truths there.

sangstrom flew to san diego to play ivey and arranged handicap before he flew out. Ivey shot 39 on the front 9 (3 months ago you could've had 100-1 on him breaking 50) and Sangrstrom paid up and walked off the course.

In australia the handicap issue was brought up as they hadn't played him for a few months and the bar was set by someone they had both played recently- erik lingren. Phil was asked directly how many shots eric gave him and he replied 10 so they used that as the benchmark. Ivey then spanked both Ram and Marc and when they got back to the hotel Eric said Ivey gets no shots off him now as he has had the best coaching money can buy for the past few months and has improved his game by maybe 22 shots a round. Lying about your handicap in golf is cheating not hussling and both Marc and Ram are not giving him a penny- if ivey had been truthful he would have still taken them for a couple of hundred grand but he got greedy and has sullied his name. Several huge names in oz were discusted by his behaviour and he flew home early. Some of the biggest names in poker have said they wouldn't give him a cent and Ivey has certainly come off not looking very good in this affair. Maybe marc will come on to confirm all this.

Is golf a big game amongst poker players now?  Every time I read an interview with a poker player ( ok, mainly Negreanu ) they mention golf. 

two sides to a story, now there's a turn up!!  N1 russ

I would doubt that Ivey has an "official" handicap, these guys arrange their own handicaps rather like we used to playing snooker, where it was considered good business to make a game where you had the edge.

Were MrCool and Ram cheating when they weren't giving Ivey enough shots and winning his money ?

Didnt he buy in to $182Ks of tourneys in 2006 and cash for $180K?

If a guy starts playing golf, in the 1st month or so, its fair to say he is going to shoot in the 100's per 18 holes. Ivey has been playing for quite a while,although I believe poorly, so for him to cut his handicap by 22 shots is near impossible within 3 months. Im not saying he hasnt lied about his handicap, but no way has he reduced it by 22 shots in 3 months as he wasnt a total beginner at the game. Hes been playing  for at least a year.
There is also the slight possibilty he had the round of his life.
No doubt Marc will voice his opinions on the matter.   

If you deliberately give a false handicap knowing you will beat it easily then it's cheating. It doesn't matter if it's official or not.
As for them cheating him, then no because he is agreeing to the amount of shots he is given, so he would be cheating himself in effect.

This was off another site where I read an interview with Ivey

What’s the craziest bet you’ve ever made?

I bet someone that I would be able to beat him at golf in 10 years. He shoots in the low 80s, so that’s a pretty crazy bet if you’ve ever seen my golf. I’m just going to practice in my downtime, and hopefully get better and be able to beat him. I have some good golfers who are trying to help me out once in a while.

How much is the bet for?

(Guilty laugh) Let’s just say it has some zeros in it.

On that basis then the shots were agreed before hand so there was no cheating by Phil Ivey either.

Sandy

No because he is hiding the fact that he has improved.
I have played off 7 at my best, if i play in a ProAm and say i play off 16 and win then i cheat.
If i say i play off 7 and they say they'll give me 6 and i agree then that's up to me whether i wanna try to make up the shot.

So you are assuming that Ivey has put in his cards and played in the required number of monthly medals to maintain an official handicap which reflects his recent improvement.

This may not be the case, and if not a handicap has to be negotiated.

If those negotiations favour one player I would not consider that to be cheating.

If he has in fact lied about his official handicap, I agree that would be cheating.

Why are you talking about official handicaps?
Millions of golfers play every day without them, you only need one on some courses or for some competitions, against friends you do them yourself but you try to be fair.

If you deliberately mislead someone then that is cheating, this is my point.
I'm not commenting on this particular situation just that if you lie about a handicap you cheat.

I can assure you that for $50K per hole you would be trying to get the edge, I certainly would.

I dont understand why ther is a debate on the subject, Ivey Clearly Hustled the other players, There is noquestion of that in my mind, I am surprised  he felt the need to hustle people like Mark and Ram however.

For anyone who likes to read about proposition bets then check out Amarillo Slim's 'In a World Full of Fat Poeple'.

IMO if the above is true then Ivey has lost out in the long term here though I don't think it's up to him to be honest about how much he's improved. Once you make a bad bet you just have to pay up and put it down to experience.

The responsibility is on you to make sure you have the necessary information before you put up your money.

IMO not paying up is worse than deceiving opponents about your true playing ability. In the same way that if I lose money to a guy in a pub over a game of pool, I'd be wrong not to pay up even if I subsequently learned he was a World Champion and not the 'hobby player' he said he was. I'd feel disgusted at myself for being a mug but I'd pay up all the same as I'd feel worse not honouring my word.

It's all very well playing for high stakes but if you can't afford to lose you shouldn't play. If you get taken for a ride you should PAY UP and may be make a more sensible bet next time.

I can't stand people who make bets and try to avoid paying up!!!!

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I think if you allow yourself to be cheated in this manner you're a mug and as the saying goes 'never give a sucker an even break' . They thought they had the odds in their favour (that they couldn't lose) so why cry and not pay the money they lost? IMO that's plain wrong!

So essentially what you are both saying is once you twig you have been conned you should still pay because you were daft enough to be conned in the first place?

Good luck with that!

when the handicap is being set on one main question- ie how many shots does Erik give you as I played him last week and so did you then its fair to say if I say "erik gives me 10 shots" which later turns out to be " I don't give him any shots and he still beat me" then you have cheated. If you want to try and cheat friends like that then fair enough but when you play off scratch you can hardly cheat someone as you are saying I play off zero- ie I expect to shoot par on this round. If he had said I play Erik off level terms he wouldve still took a good few hundred thousand in the game but when you lie about something like that which is easily checked an hour after you finish your round you can't expect to get paid imo. would be a bit like me playing ram at snooker and saying I know you were semi professional a few years ago and I haven't played for 10 years and my highest break is 30 so I want a 60 point start, ram agrees and I knock a 120 in in the first frame. Would you say thats a fair thing to do to a mate? Remember all the huge names travel together and there aren't many people out there who will play golf for 50k a hole with you, if you become known as someone who will cheat you aint gonna get many other games are you.

Of course it's not a fair thing to do to a mate. You're cofusing things here.

I'm saying that if you make a bet and you lose you should pay up.

They got confirmation after they'd lost their money and not before they made the bet.

If they beat him despite his improvement and later learned that he'd made the same false claim would they have declared the bet void and returned the money to Ivey?  

He's obviously not a 'mate' and that probably goes for a whole load of so called 'mates' on the scene.

When I make bets with mates it's not an amount that will hurt either of us. If a mate left me feeling cheated, I'd pay him off and cut all ties. Simple.

How to hustle golf


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7963651&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7963651&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1)

BTW this is a really interesting topic and is obviously very subjective. We've all got different takes on the ethics around gambling which is why I'm enjoying reading opposing views.

On a sidenote. Has anyone ever returned money to a bookmaker after having been overpaid on a win?

Cheers for that link. Will make for a good read when I get in later. :)

exactly- the round wouldve cost 1.5 million total when you've been cheated. Just pay up and sever all ties to a man you will have to sit across the table with week in week out eh? If someone has blatantly lied when asked a direct question about his handicap he not only shouldn't get paid he shouldn't get another round for high stakes.

I know nothing about golf so can't comment as to whether or not it is cheating, but I'm a bit surprised that 1 mil is so much to ram. he plays 200/400 NL online right? So 1 mil is like 25 buy ins? I would have thought you'd want to have 100 buyins minimum bankroll for those kinda stakes.

I can't afford to lose a million hence there'd be no bet to be cheated on!!!

I live by a very simple personal code and I don't tailor it according to economic cost. And I'm not saying you or anyone should pay up in those circumstances. What I am saying is that I pay up when I lose. I lose what I can afford. When people don't pay me I'm not interested in their reason as I'm still 'down'. If you can't honour a bet then don't gamble. If you make a MUG bet then pay up and try not to make MUG bets in future.

Does anyone know the exact amount of shots Ivey was given for that SPECIFIC round and he previous round they played together? These guys play enough golf together so they should have a fair assessment on Iveys game.
I know hes had 3 months of coaching but that realistically would probably take 2  -  3 shots off his handicap if hes lucky.

   

22 shots sounds high but 10 -15 shots off in 3 months of playing with coaching everyday is very plausible.

Absolutely no chance, if you had been playing 1 month maybe. Ivey has been playing for over a year regularly so the improvement factor reduces greatly because hes at a certain level already, albeit a poor one.
Unless Ivey was shooting 130+ a round

 
Friends or not,millionaires or not, playing for that sort of money is stupid,and highly likely to end in tears.

they said 100/1 on him to break 50 for 9 holes so assume 120+ a round

Didn't Negraneau make a comment that every time he played for money his opponents had the best round of their life?  Seems a theme here with poker players on the golf course?

I played for years and got down to an 11 handicap. To not be able to break 50 then suddenly shoot 39 over 9 holes should tell you all you need to know. I do believe in paying up on silly bets if I lose but if I had been blatantly cheated and lied to on the question that was used to set his handicap on the day I wouldnt only not pay I would probably give a little dig for the cheek as well. The stakes these guys play with the press in effect means even if he had been truthful when asked the question he would still have cleared 200k off ram and marc. By cheating he has done himself out of that 400k. He has also done himself out of any future games so all the lessons and hard work will have been wasted. If he had played poker with a marked deck against these 2 guys and won 1.5 million by cheating would they be expected to pay?

If they don't pay up, won't other gamblers feel afraid to take on bets with them because of this ?   I don't know about these sorts of things, I am not really into betting.  I have read numerous times that if a player doesnt pay up then they are viewed badly by others


Some people feel it is cheating and others don't.  What is the general feeling in Las Vegas amongst Ivey's American friends?

The comments I have heard from other players (household names) on this affair seem to be in agreement about the guys being cheated and they wouldnt pay. At first I thought maybe the guys would come off bad for not paying but it seems the players who play for that sort of money regularly are more against Ivey for his actions.

I don't play golf, but I don't understand why these poker players want to play a very high stakes gambling game where by definition every player in the game has an EV of zero (unless someone has 'cheated' by having a lower handicap than they should).

So what's the point?

Also, and I have no idea what the answer is to this, what would be the variance on a round of golf between three players where the handicaps have been fairly decided? In football, for example, two teams of equal ability, it is definitely possible for either team to win 4--0 on any given day. Could jet-lag be a factor in Mark/Ram playing worse than normal, or the change from arctic to warm weather conditions?

Might aswell flip a coin for $50k per flip, and if you go 9-2 down refuse to pay up becasue it's rigged. Saves on time also.

Sounds like a joke to me, if you want to play for $50k per hole in a game with an EV of zero just so you can boast about playing golf for that much per hole, when you lose give the man Ivey his money!

These are guys who are rich, they like to gamble and this gives them pleasure of some sort...they can afterwards bragg about their losses and wins, which is much easier then showing off their houses/wifes/cars and cocks...;) while playing at the casino

For poorer guys this can be equivalent of who is stronger/ burbs loudest /knows most jokes/ have most birds..../have bigger car ....

If you cheat you don't deserve to get paid imo. end of for me.

Is improving cheating ?

Not pleasant to find out the guy you used to whip is now so much better and getting revenge.

If he was asked and lied then that is different but if the handicaps were negotiated with no lies then that's the nature of the game.

Sandy

I used to play snooker for money all the time a few years ago.

I would often have to give players a start in order to get any action, for instance ten points playing with six reds.
If I won the session the next time the same guy came in we would agree the start again. Maybe it would be the same start or maybe it would change. Sometimes players improved and the start had to be changed, but it would rarely be changed mid-session. The normal way was to quit if you felt the game was bad, and negotiate a better handicap the next time. Now all this happened in Canada where I lived in the 70's and I think this is the way most guys gamble in North America.

The norm. was to pay after every game, with the stake money in one of the pockets or held by the marker, although I don't think this principle would work so well on the golf course.

IMO hats off to Ivey for a good hustle. He obviously negotiated more shots than he should of had but thats not cheating. I know when i play golf we always argue on the first tee for about 10 minutes about the number of shots everyonre gets and sometimes someone gets too many but good luck to them, they wont get that many next time. I'm surprised his opponents were hustled so easily. They should definately pay up and if they have a problem with it then don't play with him again and it will be Ivey's loss for hustling too much. But to not pay up is then bringing their honour into question.

How many shots does Erik give you?

10 shots

Ok we will stick with x as a handicap.


After getting caned- erik, "I played him off level and he slaughtered me"

you work out if he lied/cheated or not.



To put it in more realistic terms and figures we may understand I used to play £5 a hole off agreed handicaps with the boys from work (yes I did work once). One week someone who I haven't played with for 6 months turns up and joins the game but we know he has improved. I used to give him 20 shots and ask how many my boss gave him when he played the week before- oh he gave me 10 shots. Now I know I can beat my boss easily so I let him play with the same 20 shots and he murders me. Would I pay him yeh as its the sort of cash I would carry around with me but when I went back to the office and my boss said- I played him off level last week and he slaughtered me what would I do? I would go and find the cheating bstrd and get my money back and more than likely give him a little slap for his cheek.
When asked a direct question about how many shots x gives you you should answer truthfully or in my eyes you are a cheat. Cheats do not deserve to be paid imo and I would never dream of trying to turn someone over in that way. Whats the difference in cheating like this and playing with a marked deck (which I know Ivey would never do btw)?

I think that the point that everyone is missing here is that this is only going to be
+EV for Ivey if he gets too many shots from the other two.

That is why he lost to them consistently previously, because they are scratch and five handicap and Ivey is 20ish.

The low handicappers have far less variance in their scores whereas a 20-handicapper could shoot 90 or 120.

The only way Ivey can win is to get too many shots.

IF Ivey cheated then in my opinion he is out of order.

I am assuming these guys have played golf together on a few occasions, i'm also assuming Ivey has come out as the LOSER, i'm wondering how much has he LOST in the past and DID he PAY UP?

Ive always been a believer in NEVER gamble what you cant afford to lose, and it says RAM couldnt afford to pay his debt(although to his credit he has made deals with Ivey to sort it)

I just wonder if there may be a case for "bruised egos"?

I dont know any of these guys personally, only what i read about them, just my opinion

Please put your personal feelings aside in this Ariston, I understand you are friends with Ram & Marc but try looking at it from a neutral standpoint.

I don't see how anyone can consider Ivey to have cheated. Yes, he used deception with regards to the handicap but how can this be considered cheating? If they aren't playing off official handicaps, I just don't see how that argument can be applied. The shots were agreed prior to the match, I just don't see how Ram & Marc can cry foul halfway round and refuse to pay up.

 

2 - 3 months of coaching could turn a high handicapper into a single figure player very easy

i know of players that have gone from 22-26 players to 5-6 players with basic lessons and hard work ok it took them a little longer than 3 months but hey were lucky to get 2 rounds in a week never mind a round a day and a few hours on the practice ground

I bet Ivey feels just as guilty about this, as Mark and Ram did when taking his money before.

Cheating? I cannot decide.

I Agree with Variance for high handicappers.

About 2 years into playing golf, I was a 19 handicapper and my m8 was an 18 handicapper.
We entered the WIlson Better Ball regional comp and qualified for the final.
Top 4 teams in the final won an all expenses paid trip to Portugal to play the Final

Well, we both just had "one of those days" and played VERY well, both shooting 12 and 13 under par respectively.

We got called all the names under the sun, but did we cheat?

NO we didnt.

no you didnt cheat. If you had played another 19 handicapper the week before and were playing someone for cash and stated he gave me 10 shots (when in effect he didnt give you any shots) that would make you a cheat in my eyes. My first thought on this issue was the boys have been spanked and they should pay up but when I found out how the handicaps had been decided and the fact that he had been asked a direct question to which he lied in his response my views changed. Both Ram and Marc could have paid but chose not to as they felt they had been cheated. When I was playing I never had a lesson and probably played off 25 until I once played with a very good golfer (ex pro) who spotted a major flaw in my stance on the first tee- he changed my stance by the 2nd hole and i shot the best round I ever had by ten strokes, it wasn't just a fluke as I then consistantly shot 10 strokes better every round, in effect one change to my stance had took 10 strokes off my handicap. If phil had improved by 20 strokes a round fair enough but he didn't need to lie about how many strokes somebody both parties knew and trusted. If he had said he played Eric off level he wouldn't have had such a huge edge but by all accounts he would've still spanked them both and took a huge chunk of cash off them. I think he scored 51 points on a stableford scoring system so if any of you out there are golfers you know how much he had improved (equivalent to net eagles on 15 holes out of 18 and a couple of birdies if memory serves me right- I aint played for about 5 years).

Very Easy ??

After having a golf course built at bottom of the garden (other side of the fence) in my teenage years, between 16 - 18 years old I played most days, with some excellent coaching I managed 28 - 12 year one, and 12 - 2.2 in year two and I can tell you it was bloody hard work and took a commitment that took over my life for those two years.  

Without knowing the facts as they happened I think its difficult to judge - however I think I would lean towards hustle rather then cheat - and in keeping with that view I am thinking you have to pay, but very very easy for me to say that.  Not a nice position for any of those concerned - but a interesting discussion.

It's quite interesting that the stakes rather than the principal seem to affect many peoples perception.

Sandy

principal for me not stakes. If someone cheated me for a fiver I would be just as offended as if someone cheated me out of 10k. The fact Ivey lost a few hundred grand last year is irrelevant as he could have won that back in one round by being honest. If they had lost 1/2 million and Ivey had told the truth when asked a simple question they would've paid without a problem.

If it had been the first time that they had played I would agree, but not in this instance IMO.

100% pay up. If they aint got it, they owe it.

How u think they won so much in the first place? By playing off "fair" handicap marks? No. They played off agreed handicap marks which is exactly how they won so much and now they lost it.

1. running a horse without \ny weight

2. boxing with knuckledusters

3, playing football with 12 men

4. taking drugs as an athlete

5. keepin aces up yer sleeve

6.thieving ,

7 taking drugs

8 cheating at golf  is the worst of the lot

I personally think Number 4 is the worst!

If someone I trusted and respected did this to me (for much smaller stakes obviously).. I would be very very annoyued and disappointed. But I think I would pay. And never play them again.

Obviously the exact tone of the conversation before they started is crucial. But, if Ivey really was cheating, wouldn't he disguise just how good he had become in order to win alot of the next few games?

Maybe he just was having the round of his life. I virtually never broke 100 at golf. Then one day on a decent full size course I went round in 85, making 3 birdies!

Boxing with knuckledusters is pretty bad too, especially if you're the other fighter...

Agreed.  They should pay and recognise they were hustled and get on with it.

If Ram allegedly owes $900k, that means he lost every hole if it was $50k per hole. That totally taking the piss on whatever handicap was decided, I wouldn't bloody pay.

Sure the handicap may have been wrong but the fact probably still remains that maybe ram was out of his depth. WHO KNOWS!

I have to say..if by the 9th hole Ram didn't think he was getting slaughtered he is either a sucker or didn't pay attention.
Essentially he donked off at least 450k unless Ivey was being very clever about it and only just scraped a win each hole.

Hi all, i have been asked to reply to Kanos thread re golf game in Australia. On the basis that his post begins self-indulgent. semi-successful, boastful etc don't ask me how but i had an idea how his post may go, in poker terms he gave his hand away. If he had read i was the cause of climate control and poverty in the Third World i guess he would of just jumped in and slagged me off. Sorry i digress, but i feel better!! It is difficult to know where to start as he is so factually incorrect: I last saw Eric Sagstrom in Vegas in April 2006 so he never walked off after 9 holes and he may deserve an apology on the basis that "he had no intention of paying" for a game he never attended. (IMO) Kano and others may disagree.
At the start of the game we said to Phil that as we haven't played for 3 months and he must have improved we need to adjust the handicaps. We could not agree and we were doomed to no game until Ram said "does Eric Lingdren still give you 10 shots" to which Phil replied yes!!On that piece of information we had a game. As we always bitch about handicaps throughout the match Phil suggested that we agree to play 18 holes with no adjustment and then adjust for the next series of games. We agreed . I had 7 pars and a birdie back nine( even though i stormed off after 7 holes in a rage) and we lost 8 holes as they were 9 under for the last 7 holes. as anyone who plays golf would know when playing better ball doubles it is very hard to win by 3 or more holes , they finished 14 up lol. We have had the better of Phil in golf games over the last year but our biggest victory was 3 up. We had been spanked but arranged a new revised game later that week. We went out together that night (even though we have severed ties and have all this supposed ill feeling). Later on we met Eric who informed us that he gives Phil NO SHOTS. We therefore felt aggrieved and Ram asked Phil for an apology. As to wether we pay or not will be discussed in Vegas in April when we next meet. Let me put this question to you all. If i had turned up with a pro golfer and Phil said do you get shots off Eric, we said yes 10 . We played and won then he found out should he pay even a penny? If you think that he has been hustled not cheated and its just unlucky then you must be of the opinion that we should pay. In saying that If when we meet and we cant agree we will probably pay and sever ties. To gain an edge yes to win at all costs no thankyou. I will let you all know the outcome this April.

I love poker. There is no other sport i play that when rumours circulate about pro players, the pro actually comes on and gives his side of the story. Cheers marcy for givin us more to argue about now!

 Ks KingPoker Ks

Yeah thanks for telling the story.

as far as I'm concerned there's nothing to argue about. It's cheating and that's all there is to it.

Pretty obvious that ivey dosen't think much of his friendship with ram and marc to pull this move as  i think he would of realised before he played that when he tanked them by so much there would of been some heated words at the very least!

Golf is a gentlemans game honourable game its ok gettin an edge by fair handicaps but ivey improvin so much and still declaring his old handicap is just dirty and cheatin and people that play golf will understand that its just real dirty trick!!

It is tough 1 to call cause i would say ram and marc prob took good doe off ivey at the orignal handicaps and ivey thought that they caught him so he was just repayin the favour in his eyes!

Also remember rhowena interviewin ivey after london ept she asked about goodwin takin money off him at golf and he laughed and said he'll be gettin some shortly this explains what he meant lol

As a side note I am playing Ram and Marc next week for 50k a hole, they have made me stick to my old official handicap of 11 which I think is a little unfair as I haven't been playing much. My partner Tiger Woods gets 10 shots off Erik though so I have a feeling we shall be OK ;)

cheers for taking the time to reply btw Marc.

 

Hustling your mates for a shot or two at golf or 5 extra points at snooker or a ball at pool is one thing, in fact thats all part of the buzz of playing but in this instance it seems to be a terrible attempt to stitch up some good friends.

Forget the money for a moment, for me its more about disrespecting your friends and if Ivey cares about these guys he will hold up his hand and say sorry, they will call him a cheeky **** and then buy each other a beer.

I hope he does the decent thing coz to be honest it stinks.

perfectly put phil and the exact sentiments most on here would feel I'm sure. How many on here would actually try and turn a friend over in this way?

 Next time play for a fiver a hole and then you can argue/ laugh it off in the Pub.

Thanks for the reply Marc, please be aware that I simply crossposted another user's post from 2+2 about the matter. I am not part of the circuit and have no knowledge of the poker world, I simply brought the topic over to this forum for a discussion.

to be honest, even then i wouldn't laugh about it...unless immediatly after the game my mate said "Listen Pete, I kinda screwed you over"...In fact then I'd probably pay him his 50 quid and all and just laugh about it...but to not immediatly say it means he intended to screw you over for the cash..and that's never something to laugh at in my opinion. (especially not when a mate would screw you over for as little as 50£)

This was a very difficult thread for me to comment upon, but now Marc has replied, I'll add a bit.

Marc is a personal friend, who's helped me enormously, is a shareholder in blonde, & is working hard as a blonde shareholder to bring the blondes good deals - watch this space for an absolute corker! But that means I can't really be objective, my comments would need to be weighed agsinst my relationship with Marc.

But I'll say this now.

Marc told me the story a while back, just in conversation really, he was in Aussie at the time & rung me about some blonde business, we chatted for a bit & this golf adventure was mentioned.

When I saw the initial Post I was staggered - Eric Sagstrom was not even on the same Continent as Marc at the time! WTF? If we can't get the names right, the whole story lacks credibility.

From then on, it was obvious there were hidden agendas at work here.

Marc's a proper bloke, a real man, & a man of his word. That was my view before, & it ain't changed.

must have been a one sided advantage as i hear Mr Cool is no putz when it comes to Golf.

I heard down the grapevine he's not far off scratch!

Well said. marc's a nice guy and that 2+2 post just did not sound like him at all. Incidentally I once wrote about his golfing exploits against Ivey and joked that, because Marc was a scratch golfer, you would be wiser to take him on at squash because he'd surely be rubbish at that. Wrong! When I saw him next he told me we should have a game - he used to play for his county!

So the fella's good at poker, golf and squash. BUT I'll you what his achiles heel is - tennis, he admits to being useless at that. Fiver a set, best of three?

Says it all about the man's class IMO, if Ivey shows the same class Marc and Ram wont have to pay up.

Obviously not friends, Greedy ****** more like.

Marc, who was Ivey's partner ? I'm assuming that you were playing four-ball better ball.

Obviously if the game was based on Ivey still getting ten shots from Sagstrom, this was deceitful in the extreme.

With Tikay?

For those not wishing to read through 7 pages, please see the following summary of events by clicking the link below:

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/7225 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/7225)

this is a difficult subject to understand if you are not a golfer ,  cheating at golf is the ultimate sin , let me explain what happened to a person who will obviously remain nameless who cheated at golf.

1. player , who worked in a uniform (dibble but dont tell anyone)  changed the score on his card after completing a competition, he was found out by pure chance , he was instantly suspended from the club until hearing , at the hearing he was banned for life from the golf club and all clubs in  that district , he worked with a senior memeber of the club who reported him for bringing the dibbles into disrepute, and told whilst they couldnt sack him he would remain a basic dibble for ever .  he still is 24 years on.
he had to pack up playing golf lost a lot of friends .

now this was a life changing experience for this individual i can name 2 other cases where similar problems occured once caught cheating .  it may sound petty and ridiculous  to some but the way it is viewed in the golf community is like a thief.

if ivey was playing in a saturday afternoon game with  guys for a fiver and he played of a false handicap  he wouldnt be invited to s playu again and depending on the club would probably not be welcome ever again.  i cant stress the issue of cheating enough to get it across on paper buti feel for marc and ram they have been strung out to dry and if ivey was any sort of a man he would value the ethics of the game OR LEARN THEM QUICKLY  cos that can be his only "out" of the situation.

If it was an official handicap then it's cheating.

Marc has said there is always toing and froing for the strokes gained in these games therefore it isn't an official club handicap. It seems as if he went beyond the realms of haggling and lied outright to gain a huge advantage though.

The fact they have played several times before clouds the issue somewhat as they have seen him play before. Also as stated earlier why would he trounce them so bad once rather than win often ?

Sandy

Eric Lingdren.

Respect for Marc for responding to this thread and putting quite a few things into perspective.
I for one thought originally it would be to difficult to improve that greatly with 3 hrs coaching for 3 months to make that much of a difference.
This was before I realised they were playing 4 ball better ball. By giving anyone of any standard 10 shots per round is a little reckless especially with a good partner(wish Marc would enlighten us on the standard of Iveys Partner) .
Also after confirmation by Marc that Ivey blatantly lied about the 10 shots given by Lingdren , well that is cheating not hustling.

With Ivey reducing his handicap by 2 - 3 shots which is realisticly attainable in 3 months, and then getting 10 shots in 4 ball betterball Well its a 1 horse race all the way.

Was this the lineup?
(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VmMOCEmLGEQKpM:http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/pokerblog/images/110804-1.jpg)

                                                            &

(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:unUG7NJ2a04GoM:http://www.pokerlistings.com/photo-player-profile/marc-goodwin_2129.jpg)



                                                             V'S

(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:LFuomx7F8ZxomM:http://www.everypoker.com/g/poker-superstars/phil-ivey.jpg)

                                                               &
(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:x9gd9bco9byZqM:http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20070122/tiger_woods_58111.jpg)

which ones ivey?????

This is just so correct, I don't know how thjere can be any arguement. Ivey has cheated, end of.

Well I do, it is.

Hi Marc

Im sorry you have not felt able to phone me.

People seem to think you should write off the money, but if you wrote it off you would never get respect from anyone again. Everyone who you beat would expect you to write off their debts. I beat you fair and square.

As far as Im concerned the bet stands unless the goal posts have been moved.

Regards

Phil

I am also quite impressed that a guy who has not played for three months can shoot one under for the back nine  ;tightend;

yes it is

Mr Ivey with a co.uk email address?

Don't be fooled by the e-addy. The IP addy is not UK. It's Spain........

Ah ok, just wondered. Anything technical is way beyond me i'm afraid

Me too, but Iron is a whizz at these things.

I have to say, getting Marc to post a response on here to a topic originally started on, and linked from, 2+2 is a nice bit of publicity.

*waves at 2+2 guests*

Phil now living in Barcelona?

If it is really Phil I would love to know why he claimed Lindgren gave him ten shots when in reality Erik gave him no shots. Do you think this is ethical or are you just trying to get another scalp you can brag about like the chinese poker story? I think for a scatch player to lose by 14 holes quite clearly calls for a stewards, if it isn't phil I would suggest the post is removed and all subsiquent posts.  I would imagine seeing as another thread has started on the betfair forum about this topic it is more likely its one of them trying to be clever.

Noted Russ, the Mods are watchig it closely, & the blondes know how many beans make five.

It may indeed be Phil Ivey. Or it may not.....

For now, we are monitoring it closely, if we feel the need to Delete it & subsequent Posts, we will.

There is also a thread on THM about it.

my own opinion as a poker player and gambler AND A GOLFER OFF 6
i think they should pay up it was ok when the boot was on the other foot last year when ivey was doing his bollox and marc was saying ahhhh he got plenty,it was all ok to give him shots then.how could there ever be a happy medium when a scratch (marc)gives a 20 handicapper shots,,,when playing for silly amounts of money??????there dosent.....what woulda happened if ivey went backwards after not playing with these guys for 3 months?0 ..well im glad that ivey took them for a few quid they should pay....a bet is a bet....and marc being of scratch player should have seen that ivey had improved over 1-2 holes he must have just thought he was running hot.,.,.,.,.,and thought ,.,.thbis wont last ,.,.well it looks like it did..........well done ivey

i never ever heard ivey ever saying he wasnt getting enough shots out in  public???
funny now mind.......pay you debts and dont play again imho....

Hi Phil.

Just to let u know Ariston is a delicate cross between the famous Mitchell brothers in Eastenders, so if you ever need debts being collected he is a very suitable candidate for the job

Lol dubai, how the hell would Ivey know who the mitchell brothers are.

If the post was made from a Spanish IP Phil must have very long arms as he is currently in Bogota ( I just checked).

I reckon blame Zimbler. He should be blamed for anything happening in Spain.

getting a good deal on second hand set of Pings ?

 rotflmfao

Dont know if this is the right time to ask but is anyone selling a set of clubs. The ones i have now are way too short for me. I wanna get a gd  set b4 i hit it hard in the summer again! Played once a month back and hd the round of my life.

I remember Marc telling me at Barcelona EPT last year that Ivey had told him the last person who had taken this sort of money of him had ended up driving taxi's round Vegas. Was this a veiled threat or Ivey exposing half his hand of the future planned hustle.

Maybe Ivey's golf ball was remote controlled, similar to one of the older Bond movies.

According to this Gus was Ram's partner:

All the Full Tilt boys are here and tomorrow we head off with Phil Ivey and Gus Hanson for a high stakes golf match with my partner in crime Ram Vaswani. One round of golf is worth a year’s winnings on the Europen Tour so, as you can imagine, some serious verbal takes place, with all sides trying to negotiate the best handicap - he reason we win is that Ram is different class at winding up Mr Ivey .

bump..... negreanus blog... so one sided...

I reckon there's more chance of me beating Tiger Woods at golf than Ram posting about this on THM forum.

all parties involved have agreed to go to arbitration using someone who understands high stakes gambling. They will abide by the decision and that should be the end of the matter.

Most of you have probably seen this but for those that haven't Juanda doesn't leave you in much doubt what his opinion is, who says poker players are hard to read.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2DdJu9fwfw&mode=related&search=

Interesting question....

Marc stormed off after 7 holes because he felt the deal had been brokered unfairly.

Ram carried on with the round in spite of this.

Ram had a clear understanding of the form his opponent was in from this point in the round, and yet continued to wager $50k per hole nonetheless.

To continue with a clear understanding of the conditions of the bet and then to not pay is sailing close to the wind imo.

Also, could Eric not have been called before the game to confirm the conditions? If I was playing 50k per hole I would seek verification on the conditions before a ball was hit.

The problem is that Ivey's word has been accepted and a deal has been brokered on the strength of it. Accepting his word was a choice that Marc and Ram were free to make. They choose to trust his word and were clearly wrong to do so. However, this is after the fact.

I have played golf for 20 years and know that 99% of golfers embellish their unofficial handicaps to try and eek out an advantage. Because of this, I personally would have sought verification before confirming a wager for that quantity of money.

Phil Ivey lies every day for a living.

On this occasion Marc and Ram were bluffed.

Although this clearly shows the type of man Ivey is....a deal was struck. In hindsight it shouldn't have been.

I most get out more I most be sad sitting here writing this but i find it incredible that some one as posted a fairy tale straight out of the brothers grim i don't think there is 5% accuracy in any of the statement and gets 9 pages of comments WOW get a life or go and play some poker and if any one thinks Ram as not got $1000000 dream on next time I meet up with Ariston I will tell him the real story and I'm sure he will share it with you all

Phil
Are you free on the 28th for the Blonde bash?
 ;sark;

If we are gonna find out about it anyway why not be a brave boy and tell us on here?

Your not wrong. I can take the blame have done for worse in the past. lol

your guilty zimbler .