blonde poker forum

Cash game 6 handed live you on button. Blinds £1/£1

You £100
LooseTrickyAggressive to your right: £280, yoyo stack
Medium loose to his right. £150

Mediumloose UTG limp, LooseTricky limp, you look down see  Kd Kc, raise to £10. This is a big raise, the others both see you as tight. SB folds, BB folds, Mediumloose and Loosetricky call.
Flop  8s 7s  5h

Medium loose bets £10, Loosetricky calls.

What do you do?

they already know you have an overpair probably. no point in raising here as they'll only call with whatever draws they have. i prefer to flat call and reassess on the turn. you haven't dedicated much to the pot and the flop is dangerous. if the turn isn't scary you can force them out.

If the bet was bigger, say $20, I'd call and reassess on the turn. If a blank on the turn arrived, I'd min raise any bet up to 1/2 pot in size and check behind on river. If I faced a large turn bet then I'd fold.

In this case I'd raise the flop to $30, otherwise you're letting them drawing far too cheaply. If you're re-raised then I'd get out. Several factors involved in turn decision if you have a caller or two, but basically charge them pre-river, fold to too much aggression, and check river if you get that far.

Cheers. Bets are in £. I don't like playing the guy to my right, he's like no other player I know. Sometimes I wonder if he's a multimillionaire and he just plays to toy around with people, imagine the way you'd play $0.05-$0.10 NL $20 sit down. He will call a lot of bets with gutshots, and be VERY aggressive on open ended or nut flush draws, I was thrown by his flat call on this flop. The biggest factor in my decision here was playing a turn with him. If I get busy on a blank turn, and he's still on a straight draw, flush draw (or even worse) it is likely that he will reraise a protection bet because he just *loves* to gamble.

Yeah, force of habit using $, especially as I have a US keyboard with no £ sign! (Had to copy and paste that one :) )

I dont put them on a hand that beats you yet. I raise here to get HU and find out right now if im beat. Raise £20 more.

Yeah couldn't agree more, no point building a big pot when you are ahead.......

I'm kind of liking this idea the most.
I did end up bailing, There was an all-in on the river, loosetricky had the straight flush against a nut flush. Loosetricky knew exactly what I folded, advised me that if I'd pushed on the flop he would have called it, and I believe him.
Thanks for the input. KK currently my unfavoured hand, hasn't worked out in a while.

if you raise you're priced in on the turn.

Quite, especially against this dude. Not like there aren't opportunities to hit straights and flushes which pay out easy when they hold KK. After all, all you have is a pair, no straight draw, no flush draw.

I'm presuming RF isn't the only one being sarcastic here?

if you raise here and mediumloose puts you all-in you have to call. correct?

mediumloose has bet 10 into a 30 pot. he knows you have a massive hand as he sees you as tight. he expects to be raised if he bets this percentage of the pot. does that not sound warning bells?

loosetricky has flat called. as he is tricky he may well be slow playing. correct?

you raise here to 30. they both call as they are loose. there would now be over twice your remaining stack back in the pot and would be forced in if they hit any of the cards they need on the turn. that is if you aren't already behind. which i admit isn't that likely but you know they're unlikely to have big cards due to the limping. basicaly i would rather just see the turn and work it out from there. you'll get far more information.

What information are you looking for?

Raising to 30 here is not a good play, calling is much better, a pot raise is more in order, basically ship it in.

When i say raise on the flop, i say that with the knowledge that if specific scare cards hit on the turn, you are good enough to fold or shove depending on your read.
Lots of good opponents with say a str8 draw on the flop will simply call your bet knowing that if a str8ing/flushing card hits on the turn they can simply represent whatever draw arrives with a big bet.

My advice- play with a deeper stack, you get more options.

isn't it clear thats what i'm making out here?

information i want is if mediumloose bets again and trickyloose pushes i'd probably have to fold. unless the next card was a queen upwards.

Am I going nuts? how can you possibly fold KK here? (forget what happened in the hand) you are VERY liikely to be ahead. But you would fold because the guys are most likely on a draw? That doesn't make any sense.

I reraise a hefty amount make them pay for hitting their draws. OK so in this case they did but it's poor play to fold to what you think are drawing hands when you are well ahead.

you almost certainly KNOW you are ahead on the flop...how can you bail here? It's astonishing. You know you are folding the best hand in a cash game and yet you fold it as opposed to making others pay to improve.

Ofcourse the guy will tell you he would have called any raise you might have made (and he very well might have but that's what you want!!), he hit his hand this time and you are thinking "Good thing I got out of that one" That's result orientated thinking if I have ever seen it and it's not the way to think about your poker game as it's essentially the same as folding 2-3 pre-flop when 2 people are all in then seeing 333 on the flop and then deciding folding the 2-3 was a poor poker desicion, so next time you'll lump it all in pre-flop with 2-3 off suit.

I don't get this, I honestly don't.

UTG may read you for AK or a PP JJ or worse.  A lead of 1/3 of the pot would suggest a drawing hand to me as I would expect someone with 2P or a set to check raise with that flop.  If he checked on the flop and the loose opponent also checked he could be facing a pot sized bet from you with not enough implied odds to call if the loose player folds.  The loose player didn't raise which would make me think he is drawing as well.

In this spot I would raise pot as any other raise amount will give your opponents the pot odds they need to call on their draws.  Calling would be an option if you had a deeper stack but only if you were planning to pot the turn if there was no scare card.  Raising pot may get you heads up where you are a 2/1 favourite over straight and flush draws.  If they are both on flush draws the odds of the flush are 2.6/1.  Against a straight AND a flush draw you are about even money (I think).  If you get all your money in and they both call you are getting 2/1 on an even money shot (possible worst case).

If you raise pot the UTG bettor will not be getting the correct pot odds to call if he is on a draw (you will only have £18 left for him to win) unless the loose guy is going to call.  Either way you are probably ahead and you need to raise to protect your hand and to make your opponents pay for their draws.  Calling and hoping a scare card does not hit will mean that if the UTG bettor leads out again on the turn you will not have enough money to push him off his draw and by that stage the pot will be too big for him to fold.  By raising on the flop you giving yourself the chance to get heads up which may improve your chances of winning.

Why has this post gone on so bloody long?
 If these players really are loose, make a substantial re-raise on the flop and price out all drawing hands. Incidentally you would LOVE to have them both on a flush draw. I dont know what programs other ppl use but against 2 non-paired flush draws with an overpair you are a 56% favourite.

I bailed on the turn to a scare card in the face of raising, I believe I did raise the flop, not by much, more of a feeler. On the internet I would play the hand completely differently, probably the big raise flushy talks of. Mind you 10xbb preflop raises are not commonly getting called by T6. Pot odds are largely meaningless to person on my right, no such word in indian. The flipside is that hands in which I'm a 70%+ favourite get paid off very regularly, I'm not that interested in shoving £100s about where I'm maybe a 56% favourite. The fact that it's 4am probably has something to do with it too...
 Qc 5h 7s flop, betting calling
Turn Td, massive raise by Player A, representing 2 pair truthfully. Player to my right ( 4s 4c ) calls, says 'looking like I need a 4 (case 4 as it happens), hits it on river. So no amount of large raising is going to get him off it. I prefer to reserve my stack for situations where I know I've a decent lead on him, happens often enough.
My point about the KK is that preflop it's massive, certainly not so massive on this flop, even if it's ahead.

Getting 2-1 as a 56% fave and you don't like it? Take up a new game!

Couldnt agree any more. So you might lose occasionally. Who gives a monkeys. Get ur money in ahead, deny drawing hands pot odds. Thats poker.

This also assumes they both call and are on separate draws.

I believe the psychological term is 'representational bias'.

Assume one of them has a made hand that beats KK, you raise the pot and they put you all in on that flop. Your move?

I'm not understanding that.

How can you assume they have a made hand that beats you? In that scenario you described, with the player moving in on you, does it not all come down to putting them on ranges, assessing the relative likelyhood of them holding each one, your chances against those holdings, and weighting it all together to get your chances of winning the pot. Then comparing it with the pot odds, and going from there.

Too much math for the table, but it goes down to feel.


On what basis are we assuming we must be beaten?

Well i have made it £10 pre, called in 2 spots. The flop they both put £10 in so i am making it £70 to go, we started the hand with about £100 if i remember having committed £80 of my stack and seeing a £200 pot i might just find a call for my last £20.