blonde poker forum

I'm going to keep some info on location and names vague, as it is not the point here

I am playing in a B&M satellite to qualify for an event, two seats are available, seven players left. Again, immaterial which establishment,which event for the purposes of this post

I'm in seat 8, one of the short stacks

Seat 7 is the short stack

Seat 9 is chipped up.

Seats 5,7,9 have entered the competition together

Seats 1,2,4 have entered the competition together


I have objected to seats 5 and 9 talking another language at the table. On objecting, I have been accused of being a racist, but the card room supervisor has backed me up

Seat 7 limps into an unopened pot on the button

I pass

Seat 9 checks

Flop

 tc kh qd

Check check

Turn  7d

Check check

River  9c

BB checks, button moves all in for last 2300 into a pot 4000 (800-1600 blinds, a 1600 limper)

BB immediately passes

Button proudly shows   4c 4d

BB roars with laughter, says "well played" and displays td th. He's checked trips twice to a short stack and passed getting 4-1 on the end

I immediately complain, pointing out that this is the most blatant example of softplay I have ever seen, that it was a disgrace and an insult to the other players

I explain the situation to the supervisor who says there is nothing he can do but he will watch the final table from then on

By now it's really kicking off, Seats 1,2 and 4 aren't experienced live players, they are looking bemused. Seat 5 is asking me" Are you saying my friend is a cheat" (er, yes), Seat 9 says "I was waiting for him to bet and on the river I thought he must be betting with a straight"

I reply "It is either soft play or you are the worst player I have ever seen to check a set twice against a short stack. I don't care who he is, to be fair to everyone else you have to try and win the pot here"


At that point, frankly fuming and upset ( it takes an awful lot to make me lose any control, far too placid and good natured, it's a downfall of mine!!!) , I got up, left my chips there and went home. Maybe I shouldn't have done but I'm comfortable with my decision, some things are more important than a game of poker. Principles, for example.


Here's what I want to know:

Is there a prima facie case to suspect softplay here?

If presented with strong grounds to suspect softplay, what can a cardroom supervisor do?

Would you have handled this any different if you were me? (I DON'T want to be told I should have stayed and played, I know I let them win, but that was choice)

I am writing formally to various people to request that my initial buy in is returned. Do I have any case for this? Should I complain about the supervisor?

As you described it, I think you're totally right in saying this is soft play. I would go as far as saying this is blatant cheating...!

Cheats should be banned from all card rooms!

I would complain to the head office of the casino but I am afraid you will be fobbed off unless you are a huge roulette player in the said casino. It is the most blatant soft play you will see and both parties should have been thrown out IMO but card room supervisors just don't seem to have the balls to do it as a rule (exception is Yogi who isn't afraid to and has ejected people from comps in the last 12 months). You were cheated and the worst thing is there is nothing you can do about it unfortunately. All I can suggest is you name and shame so I and other blondites don't get caught at that venue ( I couldnt see thee from thine just walking away from this situation if you know what I mean ).

Ok russ, I didn't want to walk away either, but there wasn't a lot of point doing something that would get me banned!

Am writing to the necessary people now

I'm not naming and shaming, as I said in the original post

What I can't understand is that they were obviously cheating, but why show the fact that you'd hit trips...???

And against his mate who's one of the short stacks...!

yes i thinks its cheating.
did you see this thread http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=2030.0

Winkie:

arrogance, and/or as I had been sitting quietly and the three at the other end of the table didn't have a clue, an assumption that no one would bother

dan,


yes I did, thanks


Arguably what happened there, with two "name" players that would know better, was worse than this

They showed it because they knew nothing would be done about it. They would be regulars no doubt at said venue. I imagine (with this being a live qualifier) this would be a grand prix qualifier and you may get some joy out of the head office as this is there flagship event.

Tightend - just sent you a PM.

Ta,
winkie

you may well have seen vampit's(is that his name) post. where the short stack was sb and his mate cl was bb, sb moved all in bb folded KK and said he didnt want to knock his mate out

No, these people were strangers at venue.

I have sent a letter off, if there is any joy I will let the forum know

And to repeat, I am not naming any people or locations, it is the general principles and how you would handle this I am interested in.

I wouldn't have handled it as gracefully as you I'm afraid

You surprise me Ariston!!!

LMAO


It wouldn't have been tried with you sitting there, I need to work on my table image!!

Nor I, this is absolutely disgusting behaviour in any poker tournament.

Not too sure what I would have done myself, but it wouldn't have been pretty.

Just out of curiosity, did the dealer acknowledge any of this at all? did he back you up with the TD or was he as ignorant as the TD obviously was?

Newish dealer, not an issue here

ok, so you all know, this is NOT at Luton (in response to many queries!!!!)

I'm not going to offer any advice here - purely cause I am not experienced enough to give advice on stuff regarding UK casinos (I don't play enough in them - most of my play has been in Vegas).

But I have a feeling that incidents like this are going to be happening a lot more, due to people playing online, and this style of playing being prevalent online, and then playing the same live.

The question is what can we do about it? Or rather what can we expect the card rooms to do about it? I understand that expectation is very different from what actually happens, and the twain rarely meet, but we should be able to depend on TD's and supervisors, and managers to deal with this in an appropriate way.

I know that when I was in vegas in Feb, Mr Heid and I regularly played at the Plaza tourneys (we were there for 11 days, and they had 4 tourneys a day going - you do the maths - suffice to say we did a lot of playing!), and the weekdays were fine, tourists, a couple of locals that played a couple each day - but at the weekend, there was a lot more action, and on the Saturday night I was doing the midnight tourney which had a big field, but also had a group of about 8 players that were local, were very good and were obviously there to feed on the fish. They were very good, but also soft played each other to hell at the table I was at, the dealer knew it, but didn't feel comfortable bringing it up, so I moaned to the card room manager at the break, and he made a point of watching the table and calling them on it when play had resumed.

What I am trying to say is that the card room manager knew that I was going to be in town for another x days, knew that I had been playing there for x number of days, and I made it clear that I would be hot footing it over to Binions if he wasn't seen to do something about it (that was a bluff on my part - I hated playing at Binions, did it once, and wouldn't go back!) but he didn't want to lose my business.

Monsieur End <g>, I am sure I know where you were playing, cause you told me, and I think you are probably a regularish customer and they know you (they recognise me, only cause of my fat arse, and the fact I am a woman who isn't Chloe or Vicky or Mel), and yes you should kick up a stink, let them know you aren't going to be playing there until you know slow play isn't going to be acceptable, and will be acted upon. Tell them you have posted about it on the internet (it sounded nerdy a few years ago, but now it means advertising - good and bad - they all know poker in the UK is huge online).

Someone said that there should be cameras above tables - there is in the states, but I think over here, the casino doesn't see it as their money so they don't worry - they get their rake at the cage, and that's what they worry about.

OK, so I have rambled enough - you need to moan and moan big - not only will it make you feel better, but it will make them start to take things seriously - not sure what they can do about what happened last night, but it could help in the long run.

I hear such bad things about places in the UK that it really puts me off playing over here, thats the truth, pure and simple - and if feel that way, how many others do as well?

Probably not made you feel any better Tighty, and I am sorry, but you could be a martyr for the cause<g>.

Heid
xx

tighty? jeez

Heid, a very thoughtful post thank you

Ok just sussed the venue having read Heids post and I can't say I am surprised. I would think seeing as they have a high profile event coming up shortly they would have staff who know the score.
I think the exchange if I had been involved would've probably ended in me being banned  >:( ( I know a few players where it would've ended up in a riot)

They couldn't have a riot - the tables are so damn close to one another people couldn't move fast enough <g>.

Heid
xx

I think that there is another issue that needs to be addressed here

I have been in a similar situation to this and the thing that has stopped me from making a really big fuss, ie refusing to play on but staying in my seat, or rolling about on the floor with the culprit and naming and shaming venues/influential players, is the fact that casino managers are judge, jury and executioner, they can have you barred for life, from all UK casinos if they want to, without so much as a hearing, and you have no right of appeal

which, Red Dog, is the reason why as I pointed out to Ariston earlier I didn't take it further (not that I would anyway, not the type) and why I am keeping things generalistic not specific

I do think as the game increases in popularity, fields grow and with it angle shooting inevitably results (of course it already exists), there is a need not only for the standardised rules that so many of us have asked for but perhaps a Poker Ombudsman or tribunal. Players can take disputes etc to such a body for resolving and if necessary compensating after the event.

I think between the TV companies and the casinos - the rights of the players have been somewhat brushed aside. You are right though - I certainly think that is needed, I kinda can't see it happening though.

This is a sad tale Tight-End, but I fear you are not gonna get any satisfaction by writing to Head Office. It's out and out cheating, end of story, but it's just NOT possible to force anyone to bet in any situation.

I witnessed just such an occurence at Notts 18 months ago in a Final, & I stopped the game, picked up both sets of cards & called the Manager. Manager shrugs his shoulders & says there is nothing he can do, he can't PROVE it was cheating. The deep-stacked geezer, who actually held top set, had to call 200 nto an 8,000 pot - his "mate" was ali-in........Odds of 40-1, with top set, & he passed for 200, while sitting on a 40k stack! Later, same short-stack has 4,500, blinds are 2k-4k, shorty moves in for his last 4,500, Deep-Stacked mate on BB has to make up 500, so 500 into a 10.5k pot, including the SB who did not make up, and BB Cheaty Baa-Lamb passes!. Odds were about 20-1, & I turned his cards over again before he could muck them - K-7 suited.

So for 12 months, every time I sat at a table with Mr Cheat, I called him exactly that - "Hiya Cheat", & when the rest of the table wondered what I was on about, I told them the story - scores of times over the coming months. Did no good, but made me feel better. To this day, I still address him as "cheat", preferably in front of others.

Gosney also caught two guys doing it at the last Sheffield Festival, & he shamed 'em both there & then. But the beauty of showing them up is that, over time, the word spreads, & these guys slowly get ostracised.

But to some folks, this sort of play is quite acceptable - it just is. It's often said that it's just Greeks or Asians that do it, but that's just not true - there are a bunch of Brits I know that do it quite openly, admitting that they "won't play against each other, why should we, we have shares in each other".

I really don't know the answer, but I do know it don't arf rankle.

the fella to which tikay refers continues to behave like this 18 months down the line and i posted something similar to this about 3 months ago, where a pot was checked down and the guy in the BB (Mr Cheat) who was last to act just called on the end to his mates bet when he had the stone cold nuts - he could not be beaten, there was no more action after him.  I cried foul but again nothing was done and the guy got away with it.  - pure and simple it is cheating and i am affraid it will not go away until a rule is brought in to prevent such play or the TD's and card room managers get tougher.

i applaud your show of disgust by leaving and subsequesnt approach to the management but i fear it will not prevent it happening again.

Err Lord Gosney to you please :D

when you turned over K7 did you tell the rest of the table he had Kings :D

thank you for all your advice and tales

Tikay, I have arranged a meeting with both the Overall Manager of the Casino and the Cardroom manager, (having faxed a letter yesterday and rang them to follow it up) who was not the supervisor on the night

I do not expect this will yield results, but I am a persuasive chap (hence I got the meeting!). Will let you know what they say

Best of luck Tight,

Do let us know how you get on....it may pay to print off this thread and show it to them to let them see how this kind of thing is not tollerated at all.  If you show that it isn't just yourself that feels that this type of behaviour, they may listen a bit more closely to what you are saying.

Just slightly on the subject, would a quick petition help?  There would certainly be no shortage of input...

Well done TightEnd, you're flying the flag for us all here, so no pressure

Good on you tightend. I have experienced it online and it drives me crazy. Good luck.

Soft playing is just not on  fullstop.

I really don't mind if people have percentages in other people as long as they play them fair and square but to blatently soft play is bang out of order.

TD's need to take my "bitch" mode on board, cos if i'd have been there, regardless of who was at the table , the minimum penalty i'd have given would be 30mins away from table from both players and all other players warned about it, then tell them after that they will be banned.

Have to admit if I was in the same boat i'd have lost it aswell.

Hope your hearing goes well

Tight End good on ya fella!!! Please do let us all know what happens.

The problem is that the game has expanded so fast that there is a lack of people who have the necessary skill, judgement , knowledge , experiance and lets face it balls to do what is right in  situations where cheating has clearly occoured. A standardised set of rules is absolutely required however it cannot possibly cover the situations that Tight and Tikay describe . It's just not possible to make the bb call a bet if someone is all in even if he holds AA and its only one chip into a pot of one million, if he folds its his choice, he has paid the money to be there. What I am saying is that you cannot enforce rules that tell people how to play their cards, it just can't be done. As Tikay says some people even think that there is nothing wrong with playing this way against your friends so perhaps education is a better way of getting the point across, you're always going to get cheats in any walk of life but people who play poker must like it (i love it!) aand the importance of the integrity of the game is just as important a lesson as who deals, who posts the blinds and what beats what . It seems to me that this has been overlooked, i would be willing to bet that cardrooms holing begginner lessons don't even mention it.
For what it's worth Tight I think you handled the situation well , I think I would have been leaving the premises too although in rather different circumstances. I look forward to the upshot of your meeting.