blonde poker forum

Hello again with this hand! I am after trying to find out how others would have played this hand. I am not too interested in whether people thought the Danish bloke sucked out on me. Its more a case of - did I play the hand correctly. Unlike the previous post of this hand, I have included my thoughts and observations at the time...


Blinds: 100/200
SB: Henning
BB: Mark Bartlog
UTG: Danish Pokerplex bloke raises to 425. I have been watching him closely. His betting and his demeanour make me put him on Ace with a low kicker - probably suited. Unbelievably he had made the same play a few times.
Danish girly folds.

I get   Ahrt Qs  (I think the suits are right). I call.I only call as I note the German bloke has a hand. He has been strictly on a diet of AA/KK/AK. I am happy to see what he does, as I know he can be pushed off a hand very easily post flop. I am also aware that Henning Granstad and Mark Bartlog are in the blinds. I expect a re-raise from Mark

German bloke calls.
Folds around and the blinds also fold.
The pot is 1675.
Flop comes     Kc Jc Th

At this point the tills start ringing in my ears!!! ;sark;How will I play this one

Anyway, Danish bloke bets out for 1200. I now have him nailed on for A/low kicker. I heavily suspect they are both clubsI know I have the nuts at present and figure the German for top pair, if not maybe even a set. It is extremely likely a raise will scare him off now, but if he wants to re-raise me I'm more than happy. I really don't think he's got 2 clubs though

I get a chip count and then re-raise Danish bloke all in for a total of 7000. I have given him a call of 5800 into a pot of 9875. So 5/3 pot odds. He's got 9 outs known to him and another 3 he may have been unaware of for a chop, with 47 cards If he calls and I win I got to about 19500 in chips, when the average is 11k. It will also be table big stack.
German bloke gets out of the way.
Danish bloke thinks and then calls.
He shows    Ac  5c

I bite my lip cus the inevitable is coming.

Turn comes rag.

River comes   4c

So how would you play this hand???

Would a smaller raise, risking less of my stack be better??? I keep looking at it but decide once it goes over a total of 3500 its over half his chipstack and inevitable he will find himself pot committed. It also gives him bigger odds to call.

HELP!

Arguments for and against here.

If your read is that good on him (and it was), then why not flat call and push the turn (non club of course).

Looking at it another way, you got him to committ when you are ahead - what else can you do?

I'm amazed how you put him on a low suited Ace pre-flop just from his raise, but if your read that that insanely spot on - maybe call and shove a non-club/queen turn. Then he cannot call.


edit: i actually didnt read the post above ::) anyway, personally I dont believe its possible to read someone that insanely well and maybe after the event your looking back and convincing yourself you did know? I'd shove this flop without a read, but point was if you know he has this then calling and shoving a blank turn really makes him such a underdog he can't call.

You call in a multiway pot "knowing" that someone has you dominated and in position and expecting a re- raise from the blinds????

yeah this is what made me think. That's just insane.

ok fair enough. I obviously wasn't playing but seems to me you did everything right.

My Answer:

Firstly, the way you have played this hand is fine. Getting your chips in with the best of it is all that any of us can do.

However, this is my analysis:

Pre-flop you decided to flat call. Thus you have assumed the roll of the caller not the aggressor. You could have decided to re-raise pre-flop and become the aggressor in the hand but decided to see a flop instead. The flop comes Bingo Bango Bongo and you have the coconuts. The pre-flop raiser bets out 1200 which is to be expected. He is still assuming his role as the aggressor and could have any hand. We now know he is betting out in the hope that the club comes (or to take the pot down). Why change your role in this hand now? You have the nuts with a player betting into you and an active player to act behind you. He is betting 1200 that the club comes so just call 1200 and bet that the club doesn't come. Why risk everything right now? You would only push here in the hope that the other players fold and you take the pot.

Don't be scared to play the nuts, you are in charge of this hand. If the club does come you can withdraw from the hand with your tournament life in tact. Don't be fooled into thinking that calling is a weak play here and pushing is strong.

Calling is the aggressive play. You are trying to maximise this opportunity to win the tournament.

If you go all-in here he will always call. Why? Because it is his pot. Forget pot-odds. You look at the hand from his perspective. He raised pre-flop with a weak hand and got two undesirable callers. The flop comes Bingo Bango almost Bongo. He bets out drawing to the nuts. You go all-in. You could be going all-in with any draw yourself and as such even his A could be good now, if not the club certainly will be.

But it is more the principle of the thing. If you want to win these events you are not going to let someone push you off a pot if you are the aggressor and drawing to the nuts. If he folds here his table image will be a joke.

My advice...you called pre-flop in the hope of hitting a flop and proceeded to hit the perfect flop. Just call again here. The German may sense weakness and push with anything, one pair, two pair or a bare queen for example...lovely jubbly.

When a blank comes on the turn the Dane may slow down and surrender the pot. Now bet. He is no longer the aggressor you are and he will now fold because if he was going to call a bet he would have pushed himself. If he pushes, you call, great, same result one less card to come. In addition the German could still be contributing to your tourney winning pot.

 :goodpost: and ;welcome;

Interesting..excellent post

Food for thought :)

Oh and welcome!

Call flop especially with someone to act behind. Raise/bet turn

my god, some thoughts you have.

u heavily suspect they are both clubs, as well as not really thinking he has two clubs?

your pre-flop thoughts are truely baffling also.

but u did get your chips in with the best hand so u played it well in that respect.

I was thinking about this hand a bit more today, and have decided pre-flop i'd have played differently.

Was the German really limping with AA/KK/AK (I assume QQ can be added to his range). If so apart from flopping the straight or a set or queens your in big big trouble with AQo, plus you say the villain has a raggy ace. So why not re-raise pre-flop and find out where you are.

You have position post-flop if anyone does call, you find out a bit more about the German's hand and WILL get A5 out the pot 80% of the time, as if the flop did come with a ace - will you be confident enough to know when he has flopped 2 pair ?

I'd be interested to know if anyone disagree's with this pre-flop aggresion.

Also gutted for you Lee, if you'd not been outdrawn you'd of had a nice stack to try and been set to progress deeper into the event!

The crucial thing to remember for winning tournament play is to make the very most out of favourable situations.

How many times do we call a raise with A-Q....miss the flop...and then fold to a continuation bet?....Lots!!

Sometimes the flop will come a seemingly ideal A high and we will do all our chips to A-K

Sometimes the flop will come A-Q-6 and we do all our chips to a set of 6's

And there are an infinite number of variations to the above which creates a lot of negative equity when calling a raise with this type of hand. However, calling 425 to CATCH A FLOP is still a perfectly reasonable play.

Once you have called the 425 that money has gone into the big speculation pot in the sky along with all the other speculative calls you have made pre-flop with A-Q throughout your poker life....So c'mon lets catch a flop with A-Q for once....it's an EPT event for christ's sake.

Low and behold, the poker gods have shown a bit of compassion for once, it is a good day, and the flops descends onto the felt to the sweet melody of Viva Las Vegas.

Lets say the Dane bets out with any hand as would be expected....A-J for example. You go all-in. The German folds. The Dane folds. You win 1200.

There is little point calling raises with A-Q, folding a lot post flop, and then making a meagre 1200 with you flop the nuts.

So flat call here let the German push with his A-K and get well and truely paid for this rare golden moment.

If things don't work out, you get knocked out, so what, you got knocked out anyway, we all get knocked out a lot.

The point is....

YOU GET KNOCKED OUT TRYING TO WIN THE COMPETITION.....NOT SCARED TO LOOSE IT!!!

Good Luck

before i could answer i have to ask, what was your table imagine at the time? what kind of hands were you showing/playing?

Best Thread Ever No Dangers.

My advise would be to cash in any future EPT tickets for the €5000 monetary value.

 ::)

 ;D another Dubai classic .

Jesus.

Your reads are sick. He raises with 100-200 blinds to 425 and you put him on ace rag suited.

He continue bets a monet flop with 2 clubs and you suspect he has A rag clubs now.

He calls your all in and he had, wait for it, Ac 5c ! Your a genius

My advice on the hand would be, get yourself out of these chump change EPTs and into the Big Game ASAP!

Got to agree with Sunday here, your game is clearly far superior to any of ours as you seem to have an uncanny knack of knowing the exact hand of everyone at the table before we've even seen a flop. If you don't succeed in the Big Game, perhaps try your hand at some job to do with tells that people give off because you're clearly gifted.

ps, another classic post from dubai. how's vegas?

Jules

Jeez, a stunning analysis.

Welcome to blonde Mr (Mrs?) Mantis01, where have YOU been hiding?

For those who mock the seemingly impossible reads jjandelllis claims, I'd say this.

Pre the Dortmund EPT, easily the biggest comp he'd ever played was the one in which he won his seat. He wanted to win that comp, & the seat that went with it, more than anything he'd ever wanted in Poker, it was the all-time high of his short poker "career". (He's actually a career Soldier, not long back from Iraq).

He got Heads-Up eventually, after a series of astounding reads on opponents in crucial hands - he got it right every single time.

So, Heads-Up, £4k or so, plus an EPT Seat & expenses package are up for grabs, plus the - to him, & many others - coveted title of Welsh Amateur Poker Champion. This was way, way above anything he'd ever achieved before.

Heads up he makes a sturdy R, & get's Re-Raised all-in. He dwells for 2 or 3 minutes, never taking his eye off Matey Boy. Then announces "I'm ahead - I CALL".

He flips over  Jc Th, & Matey Boys face tells the story, as he shows his 6-2 (or similar, I forget exactly).

In the context in which the hand was played, an astonishing call.

Don't underestimate him, smirk all you like, but the guy has serious game, in my opinion.

Now he's turned to the blonde PHA Board for help to improve his game, & the mocking starts. I find that a bit sad, to tell the truth, but it's whatever turns you on I guess.

I don't understand

First half makes sense



This bit makes no sense to me. I might just be reading it wrong tho???


So first he's saying you've got the nuts just call don't scare off your opponents. Then he's saying if you push with the nuts you're always gonna get called. Well if you're "always" gonna get called which is pretty debatable imo then wtf is he saying to call? We have the nuts FFS we are looking to get maximum value from our hand.

Back to making sense here


Don't get this bit why do we want him to fold??



Calling the flop with the nuts is obv the standard play, the thing to think about is if a scare card comes on the turn you may not get anymore action. OP says he had a strong read that villain was on the nut flush draw and wouldn't fold. Cool, good read, got all in with the nuts, well played, UL with the result.

Didn't wish to mock him at all, in fact its probably not correct to post sarcastically to someone i don't know. But all to often on poker forums people seemingly make their reads after the cards have been flipped over. Apologies on any offences caused.

My analysis on the hand would be:-

he has basically min raised in mid pos, my range on him (on the information of him opening a lot of pots) would be that he has any 2 connectors suited or unsuited, a smallish pair, or 2 pictures.

Once the flop comes down i would be only calling his bet on the flop because there are so many hands he could raise with that its unlikely he has hit this flop hard enough to call an all-in or raise with. As for the other player in the hand it also gives him the chance to make a squeeze or a raise if he has hit the flop KJ, KT, TT etc.

As it panned out you played the hand perfect and got your chips in as a pretty big favourite. Maybe explains why your playing EPTs and i was busto 5 times last year!

All the best,

Ben

Thanks Ben, much appreciated.

Collectively, the Mods must have over a hundred PM's from Members who say they have been deterred from asking for advice on the PHA as there are so often sarcstic responses.

I am much grateful for your analysis, & I am sure jjand ellis is too.

This PHA Board could be soooooo good, if only......

Yeh i do agree i am far too sarcastic in life in general! As long as people know that i guess its ok :)

well all can i say is we all live and die by our reads we all have faith in them rightly or wrongly and some of us are better at it than others, in order to win a comp like this that is the hand that makes you or breaks you but that is the same in any comp sooner or later you will be all-in with a strong hand agaist a draw and if you win you go on to cash if you lose you kick yourself about it,

to answer the question could it be played diffrently of cause it could but why would you want it to be?, if you do manage to see a cheapish turn sure you can get away from the hand but you got to take every chance you get to get your hands on chips and if he misses you have a nice stack if you see a cheap non turn club you win a small pot  sometimes you just got to go for it and this was one of them times next time you will win and go on to cash in the long run it all evens out

Tikay - the biggest drawback of this board is that there are no guidelines as to what is required to get some sort of sensible response.  At least jj did give his thoughts on the table and on likely holdings.  Many posts give no information other than holecards, flop and action.  There is more information there and you can't be a winning player unless you use it - so how can winning players be expected to respond sensibly without the info that they use? 

As far as responses are concerned, I don't actually see many sarcastic responses other than to obvious bad beat/cooler posts.

OK



In the hope of making sense.

If you push on the flop you loose the one opponent you have crushed and get called by the one opponent that can end your tournament. Don't forget that this a 3 way pot and our friend has read one of his opponents for the flush draw. By flat calling the post-flop bet you maximise your chances of milking two opponents whilst minimising the risks of getting busted out of the tournament by the flush.

Yes, you can certainly push on the flop and get the flush draw to call you. An incorrect call from him maybe, but a call none-the-less. Then you must rely on luck rather than skill to decide your tournament. The rail is littered with players who can boast that they gave their fishy opponents the incorrect odds to call. By flat calling the 1200 you offer the third player, the German, the opportunity to push himself or to call. Both these choices are denied him if you push.

At this point let's call the 1200 and see if the club comes. In doing so let's snag the German up in the hand. If the club does come then that's unlucky, but hey, you are still very much alive in the tournament rather than heading to the bar.



If the Dane checks the turn it is correct to bet so that he is denied the free card he desires. We are happy to keep milking the German but are not unhappy to loose the Dane here. I don't particularly want the Dane to call because he can knock me out. The pot is now relatively sizeable. One opponent is drawing dead and one is a live threat.

Playing the hand out this way means that you are in control all the way. You can alternatively just shove on the flop, loose the German and see what happens. Whatever takes your fancy.  

P.s.

Thankyou for the welcome all. Have played with Tikay at a couple of final tables (Walsall). Didn't learn much though.

 

Standard.

(Great posts by the way.  It's always good to have different opinions, especially when they are backed with sound and clear reasoning. :)up)

OK


Listen, the thing about poker is this. Hand analysis and opinions about how I would have played it or what someone else would do, are just that..opinions. People are all different. No-one thinks alike. This is what makes the world such an interesting place.

People may poke fun at the way you play a given hand.That's pretty naive. You seem to come across a good deal of "poker players" at the moment who think that if someone doesn't play a hand on their terms that "fish" doesn't understand the game. Maybe, but that fish is a live opponent at your table. If you don't open up to how that person thinks then you put yourself at a disadvantage.

Much better to absorb how someone else plays out a scenario and learn from it rather than pour scorn on it. This is how you become a better poker player.

Everyone who plays poker is on a learning curve period. There is no right or wrong way.

I really couldn't care less what other players think about me but I am keen to learn how they think. This is a good combination.

The best advice is to play like a gentleman, show a healthy respect for everyone at the table, and have some fun playing a really good game!

Actually the best poker advice is...

"If you want to live you cannot be afraid to die!".........Amir Vahedi

So, I would say that you played the hand fine and it's good that you want to learn how others think.

But that's just an opinion

Which could be wrong of course!!!