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Poker Forums => Poker Hand Analysis => Topic started by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 10:35:57 PM



Title: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 10:35:57 PM
 Tonight in Ladbrokes $3 rebuy tourney , this is the hand I went out on.

 I analysed it afterwards and started to think I should have played it differently.

 To cut a long story short , I flopped middle set on a flushing board and went bust when another player made the nut flush.

 Ill post the hand history then give a bit of info and thought process throughout the hand.

 Any opinions / advice would be great , cos this is the kind of hand that I think is making the difference between making the money and going further.

 Also , I would appreciate good opinions and advice rather than the bashing and niggling you sometimes get on PHA.

   Game starting - 2007-03-16 21:47:45

 $1,500 GTD $3 NLHE Rebuy Table 5 Multi Table Hold 'em 1000/2000 No Limit  Real Money

- Eoannis39 sitting in seat 1 with $65464.31

- hef sitting in seat 2 with $38809.12 [Dealer]

- julesjb sitting in seat 3 with $21092.69

- Jack2310 sitting in seat 4 with $26246.68

- peachy4444 sitting in seat 5 with $28318.44

- Sandra1 sitting in seat 6 with $63833.30

- AB18 sitting in seat 7 with $63550.00

- chop176 sitting in seat 8 with $39988.07

- swisster sitting in seat 9 with $92448.01

- JoeChink sitting in seat 10 with $38965.16

julesjb posted the small blind - $1000.00

Jack2310 posted the big blind - $2000.00

 Dealing card to Jack2310   6h  6s

peachy4444 folded

Sandra1 folded

AB18 folded

chop176 folded

swisster raised - $4000

JoeChink folded

Eoannis39 folded

hef called - $4000

julesjb folded

Jack2310 called - $2000

 Dealing the flop:  4c  6d  Jc

Jack2310 bet - $6000

swisster raised - $12000

hef called - $12000

Jack2310 went all-in - $18246.68

swisster called - $12246.68

hef called - $12246.68

 Dealing the turn:  Kc

swisster checked

hef went all-in - $10562.44

swisster folded

hef shows:  Ac  8c

 Dealing the river:  7d

hef wins $85740.04 from the main pot

End of game

 now , a couple of hands before this I lost about 12k when I ran QQ into AA , by now i was below average , Swisster has been pretty solid from what ive seen , so i figured he could have a big hand here and didnt want to push with 66 at this stage of the tourney ( just inside top 30 paid places )

 when hef called I figured he had a playable hand , but didnt put him on too big a hand. he is pretty well known on Ladbrokes and is a good tournament player.

 I decided to flat call the minimum raise , hoping to flop a set.

 So , I got a good flop for my 66 , I originally thought about checking , but the Clubs made me decide to bet out , hoping for the raise , then i could re raise all-in , I now think this was the mistake.

 If Swiss or Hef have AK / KQ or a pair ( JJ , 10 10 ) Im hoping for the raise or at least a call.

 When Swiss min raised again , I put him on a big hand , the K at least , maybe AA

 then hef flat calls , so by this point there is 43,000 in the pot and i have 18,000 left , im more than committed to the pot.

 Should i have checked the flop , then say if Swiss bets the 6k or bit more , I imagine Hef would just call a bet here , as he did the min raise.

 Then if I push , do I have more fold equity , or do Swiss and Hef have to call ? Does Hef call 18,000 all in re raise anyway with a draw ?

 this is what is getting to me , in the end hef puts roughly 70% of his chips in on and before the flop with a draw.

 Is he going all the way no matter how i play it , or could i have played it a bit differently ?

 for example , pushing the flop , to get rid of draws , but perhaps get a call from AK/KQ ??

 this is really doing my head in , if I won this pot id have 85k , chip leader at the table , probably top 3 overall , and have a chance to go on and play for the $600 on offer at final table.

 i appreciate this is a long post , but any advice / pointers from some of the quality MTT players on Blonde would be really appreciated.

 cheers . BigT


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 16, 2007, 10:43:53 PM
at this stage in a comp when its basically a crap shoot i would either fold or go all in preflop



Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Royal Flush on March 16, 2007, 10:45:05 PM
Also , I would appreciate good opinions and advice rather than the bashing and niggling you sometimes get on PHA.

I don't want to fall foul of you thinking i am bashing or niggling you in this post as i can't think of much positive to say about how you played the hand so i will keep my opinion to myself.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on March 16, 2007, 10:59:34 PM
Shove pre.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 11:04:35 PM
at this stage in a comp when its basically a crap shoot i would either fold or go all in preflop



 it wasnt really a crapshoot , still a lot of play left , i was well below average ,  with about 14BBs .

 but the average stack still had a bit of play left. i dont like folding a pair for a min raise , when im getting 5 1/2 to 1 on the pot.

 this brings up another question , i seen on here recently , does a min raise usually mean weak or strong ??

 it puts questions in your mind , maybe if he raised 3/4 BBs i would have pushed , but this min raise gets inside your head.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 11:06:13 PM
Also , I would appreciate good opinions and advice rather than the bashing and niggling you sometimes get on PHA.

I don't want to fall foul of you thinking i am bashing or niggling you in this post as i can't think of much positive to say about how you played the hand so i will keep my opinion to myself.

 you cant think of anything positive to say , yet you still have to come on with exactly the type of post im talking about , and get your little word in.

 i specifically wrote asking for positive advice , if you dont have any , dont post .

 no need for your sad little digs , really getting pathetic now mate.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on March 16, 2007, 11:14:12 PM
i feel left out


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 11:17:29 PM

 lol , i dont reall like pushing with small pairs , coin flips at best usually , but i suppose when I go under 15 BBs i normally look for a solid hand to double up with , and this probably should have been it , I didnt realise at the time I was under 15 BBs TBH.

 cheers anyway , just really frustrating , playing for 4 hours then going out like this , you know ?


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on March 16, 2007, 11:19:16 PM
Doesnt matter what you push with!!!!!!!!! Coin flips at best... ONLY WHEN YOUR CALLED!!! SLAG it up, play any 2 here, squeeze them out!


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 11:25:38 PM

 SLAG ? take it that is Super Loose Aggressive ??? and not the other type of slag you come across sometimes ?


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 16, 2007, 11:26:42 PM

 definitely no pun intended    ^
                                          i


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 17, 2007, 12:06:24 AM
with 14x bb and an average stack your in a crapshoot

even if you werent you were well past the stage where you could limp in and try and catch a set or leave

your 7-1 to flop a set 4-1 to make it by the river

you go all in here you problery win the pot uncontested if you dont your in a coin flip

but you have great fold equity

the only other play is to fold worth doing if you think you are against a bigger pair or likely to get called


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Royal Flush on March 17, 2007, 12:07:39 AM
with 14x bb and an average stack your in a crapshoot

even if you werent you were well past the stage where you could limp in and try and catch a set or leave

your 7-1 to flop a set 4-1 to make it by the river

you go all in here you problery win the pot uncontested if you dont your in a coin flip

but you have great fold equity

the only other play is to fold worth doing if you think you are against a bigger pair or likely to get called

Folding is far worse than calling.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 17, 2007, 12:15:28 AM
i'm not a fan of folding here but i certainly wouldnt call


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 17, 2007, 12:45:05 AM
 why not ? your getting 5 1/2 to 1 on the pot and stil have 12BBs to play after the flop


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: sovietsong on March 17, 2007, 12:50:36 AM
you push preflop then royal?  i would have passed...


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Royal Flush on March 17, 2007, 12:52:52 AM
you push preflop then royal?  i would have passed...

I am not allowed to say, the original OP has PM'd me and asked me not to comment on the play of the hand.



(http://dvd.kingkong.free.fr/images-dvd-king-kong/kingkong.jpg)


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: sovietsong on March 17, 2007, 12:53:43 AM
PM me with what you would do as your opinion is v.important to me!  :)


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 17, 2007, 01:01:01 AM
12bb isnt play





Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 17, 2007, 01:03:50 AM
if you flop a set you then need to find your oppos with a hand or a draw to pay you off for the times that you miss and fold

your only getting 11/2 for whats is in effect a 7-1 shot and then hope that your oppos have enough of the board to pay you the implied odds which will reult in out draws meaning you need larger impied odds


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 17, 2007, 01:04:16 AM
oh and your out of position


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 17, 2007, 01:13:05 AM

 thats a bit tight in my opinion , i call or push . dont like to go all in for coin flip for tournament life though.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: BigTomatoes on March 17, 2007, 01:14:11 AM

 dont mind an answer to the question flushy , as long as it it isnt snide .  ;)


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 17, 2007, 01:14:41 AM
but your not going all in for a coin flip your going all in to make the others fold hands like A8


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on March 17, 2007, 01:30:58 PM
PM me with what you would do as your opinion is v.important to me!  :)

Your opinion means sh*t to us all flushy. Could probably guess its the usual.......


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: stewart on March 18, 2007, 01:32:30 AM
 i have to ask this what are u doing there pre-flop with a small pair after a min-raise and a flat call and 1st to act?, with a relitivley shortstack - thats where ur problem is, once u hit the flop ur bet looks week like your hopeing they havent hit it and trying to take it down and his raise is ok he figures you for a J that doesnt want to risk your tourneyment life on it,  they only way out of this hand is to check the flop and let the fd bet the other guy call and then move-in then if he wants to call thats his choice, the way it panned out hes never passing

but it is a small comp he most likely is just trying to go for 1st spot and not botherd about small placeings in that case if u go all-in he prob calls on the flop, but pre-flop is the problem like i said before u got to look at things before calling a min raise for value so u prob think, the push pre-flop isnt really an option here either by the sounds of it 1 of the 2 guys will call,


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on March 18, 2007, 01:43:42 AM
push pre


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: johnbhoy76 on March 19, 2007, 08:53:58 PM
I cannot agree with most of the relies so far.

For me you did nothing wrong and most people are commenting on this hand with the benefit of knowing the final outcome.

"push pre flop" is the statement of a plonekr. Sorry but it really is.

you are getting 5-5 to 1 to hit to see the flop so what's wrong with a call? Why are so many players scared of flops and just want to go all in and let fate decide? You're supposd to be poker players for heavens sake! What's wrong with seeing a flop when you're getting 5.5 to 1.

When that flop came out I'd have just stuck it all in as any sort of bet would pot commit you anyway so you might as well go all in. Hopefully they would take that as you having to pair and call with their flush draw.

The fact that you got outdrawn is totally irrelevent as to how you should have played the hand.

I think you played it fine and just got outdrawn



Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: johnbhoy76 on March 19, 2007, 08:58:27 PM
, once u hit the flop ur bet looks week like your hopeing they havent hit it and trying to take it down

Surely that is a good thing considering he has flopped a set?


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: JungleCat03 on March 20, 2007, 01:51:22 PM
I cannot agree with most of the relies so far.

For me you did nothing wrong and most people are commenting on this hand with the benefit of knowing the final outcome.

"push pre flop" is the statement of a plonekr. Sorry but it really is.



Sorry but it's not!

Against 2 very weak looking bets, you get the opportunity to just about make both lay down preflop, or if called give yourself the best chance of getting heads up with likely the best hand in an pot with an overlay.

There's next to no room to "play poker" on the flop. If you call, it's very likely you are playing no set no bet. It will be difficult to bluff your way out of the pot from "wayyyyy outta position" (tuffish 6-9)

When you're shortish, these opportunities can be golden.

Calling is an option. Especially if you are suspicious of the min raisers range (although in 90% of cases he will have sweet f a)

You are definitely getting the odds to flop a set including implied odds. Folding's yuck.

 


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on March 20, 2007, 02:03:58 PM
insta push but i'm a plonker


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: totalise on March 20, 2007, 02:07:44 PM
i have to ask this what are u doing there pre-flop with a small pair after a min-raise and a flat call and 1st to act?, with a relitivley shortstack - thats where ur problem is, once u hit the flop ur bet looks week like your hopeing they havent hit it and trying to take it down and his raise is ok he figures you for a J that doesnt want to risk your tourneyment life on it,  they only way out of this hand is to check the flop and let the fd bet the other guy call and then move-in then if he wants to call thats his choice, the way it panned out hes never passing

but it is a small comp he most likely is just trying to go for 1st spot and not botherd about small placeings in that case if u go all-in he prob calls on the flop, but pre-flop is the problem like i said before u got to look at things before calling a min raise for value so u prob think, the push pre-flop isnt really an option here either by the sounds of it 1 of the 2 guys will call,

what?


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Swordpoker on March 20, 2007, 06:36:57 PM
I would have played the hand in exactly the same way that you did. It's not yet shove time and definitely worth a call. With all the money in the middle you are still favourite to win. Don't you want folk to chase their draws like that?


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: stewart on March 20, 2007, 08:11:38 PM
to put it in a better way,  in what comp do you ever want to get all your chips in with a pair of 6's? when u figure u are going to get called, unless you are extremely low stacked, sure once you flop a set there is no way out your allways doing your stack just one of them things carnt even call it a bad beat because it isnt he has been the aggressive player thorowout the hand with a legitment hand

But the question is what are you doing there with that hand in that postion at that stage of the comp


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: totalise on March 20, 2007, 08:47:11 PM
Quote
But the question is what are you doing there with that hand in that postion at that stage of the comp

tryin to get some chips so you dont dribble your stack away waiting for the better spot that never seems to materialise?  Of the preflop condundrom, there are two options, and neither of them is to fold.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: dime on March 21, 2007, 02:39:09 PM
Personally I think its a preflop raise. A minium rasie to me is a week play, only week players or strong players playing week would min raise, as your playing in a $3 rebuy its likley to be the former option. The call from the button can mean a wide variety if things (depending on the player) but without furthur knowledge I'd say he could be playing anything upto 50% of hands. So a weak bet and a weak call (by this I mean he has a wide variety), this is a perfect place to pull a squeeze play (as described by Harrington, one player raises the next call, your last to act ie if you call the betting ends).

As your the BB its only 2,000 to call and as you say your getting good odds (although not not a +EV as what will you do if you don't fill-up? you'll probly fold), a 6 comes down but with 2 suited cards. I think at this point you have two options, you either go all-in with your last 14,000 this gives the wrong odds to call (although as both have, particuly the pre-flop aggrssor more chips than you so they might still call, the second is more likely to call to a draw if the first one calls first) the second option is to check and look to get a "free card" so you can bet on the turn if a non club comes out. The problem with checking is what to do if someone bets now, do you call or not? You are almost definatly in front here so I'd call and hope he (or they) don't hit.

Of the three option I like the all-in on the flop the most, although if you call I think you should have moved all-in straight away on the flop.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Ironside on March 21, 2007, 05:13:43 PM
Personally I think its a preflop raise. A minium rasie to me is a week play, only week players or strong players playing week would min raise, as your playing in a $3 rebuy its likley to be the former option. The call from the button can mean a wide variety if things (depending on the player) but without furthur knowledge I'd say he could be playing anything upto 50% of hands. So a weak bet and a weak call (by this I mean he has a wide variety), this is a perfect place to pull a squeeze play (as described by Harrington, one player raises the next call, your last to act ie if you call the betting ends).

As your the BB its only 2,000 to call and as you say your getting good odds (although not not a +EV as what will you do if you don't fill-up? you'll probly fold), a 6 comes down but with 2 suited cards. I think at this point you have two options, you either go all-in with your last 14,000 this gives the wrong odds to call (although as both have, particuly the pre-flop aggrssor more chips than you so they might still call, the second is more likely to call to a draw if the first one calls first) the second option is to check and look to get a "free card" so you can bet on the turn if a non club comes out. The problem with checking is what to do if someone bets now, do you call or not? You are almost definatly in front here so I'd call and hope he (or they) don't hit.

Of the three option I like the all-in on the flop the most, although if you call I think you should have moved all-in straight away on the flop.

i wish i could of said that like that but i aint a wordsmith but i wholeheartly agree with the sentaments


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Loradan on March 31, 2007, 09:53:33 AM
All in when the flop came down for me... you were the first to act.

Your raise was small enough to call/re-rasie and once that was done the money in the pot was worth calling your all in.

In the end you were outdrawn, you may have been able to scare the others off with an all-in you may not.



Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Tragic on March 31, 2007, 12:11:39 PM
Push pre depending on ur evaluation of the other two players, you want a realistic chance either both, or at least one of them will fold a decent hand. IF not the definitely at least call. I'd probably just jam the flop and hope someones got top pair, alot of people esp at $3 think oh my god he's going all in there's no way he has a strong hand. Then at least you make it a marginal/bad call from Mr. FLush draw, whereas the way you played it there his call was entirely correct.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: Royal Flush on March 31, 2007, 02:17:20 PM
lol i am loving the replies that say push all in once you flopped a miracle. It's brought a smile to my hungover face.


Title: Re: This hand is annoying me , could I have played it differently ??
Post by: matt674 on March 31, 2007, 04:06:06 PM
you push preflop then royal?  i would have passed...

I am not allowed to say, the original OP has PM'd me and asked me not to comment on the play of the hand.



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