blonde poker forum

I was criticised by quite a few on the rail for this re raise, I would love your comments please, My thought process was, I have under 10 bb, I don't want to limp in to FT, and he could be holding any 2, was it that bad, I don't think so, please let me have your views


PokerStars Game #9088672039: Tournament #45258663, $200+$15 Hold'em No
Limit - Level XXVI (40000/80000) - 2007/03/25 - 19:49:33 (ET)
Table '45258663 4' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: DrEskilstuna (1596227 in chips)
Seat 2: dayero (980117 in chips)
Seat 3: pokitsnowmen (2145802 in chips)
Seat 4: Dewi_cool (582063 in chips)
Seat 6: velvetlife (1430645 in chips)
Seat 7: GigaBet (4568669 in chips)
DrEskilstuna: posts the ante 4000
dayero: posts the ante 4000
pokitsnowmen: posts the ante 4000
Dewi_cool: posts the ante 4000
velvetlife: posts the ante 4000
GigaBet: posts the ante 4000
Dewi_cool: posts small blind 40000
velvetlife: posts big blind 80000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dewi_cool [8c 7c]
GigaBet: raises 160000 to 240000
DrEskilstuna: folds
dayero: folds
pokitsnowmen: folds
Dewi_cool: raises 338063 to 578063 and is all-in
velvetlife: folds
GigaBet: calls 338063
TheWhisper [observer] said, "gl dewi"
*** FLOP *** [5h Kd 4h]
brauchpotato [observer] said, "lollllllllllllllllllllll"
Rhmd [observer] said, "wow"
kuldipc [observer] said, "omg"
christyb4 [observer] said, "glgl giga"
sheets [observer] said, "np"
*** TURN *** [5h Kd 4h] [Qc]
mbardsen [observer] said, "loooooool"
kuldipc [observer] said, "hahahaa"
kuldipc [observer] said, "a"
UCLArounder [observer] said, "wtf"
kuldipc [observer] said, "hahah"
*** RIVER *** [5h Kd 4h Qc] [Th]
Rhmd [observer] said, "sick"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dewi_cool: shows [8c 7c] (high card King)
GigaBet: shows [7h 5c] (a pair of Fives)
kuldipc [observer] said, "a75"
sheets [observer] said, "tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
GigaBet collected 1260126 from pot
JohnnyBax [observer] said, "ding"
Rhmd [observer] said, "so sick"
kuldipc [observer] said, "ur a donk"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1260126 | Rake 0
Board [5h Kd 4h Qc Th]
Seat 1: DrEskilstuna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: dayero folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: pokitsnowmen (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Dewi_cool (small blind) showed [8c 7c] and lost with high card
King
Seat 6: velvetlife (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: GigaBet showed [7h 5c] and won (1260126) with a pair of Fives

With your chip stack and facing a chipped up early raiser I would rather wait for a better spot to get my chips in (You have to assume you have undercards at best), however once you did get them in you were in front and it seems to me the railers are criticising his play rather than yours....

I think a bit more patience would have served you well, getting your chips into a unopened pot gives you the chance to incease your stack by 20% without having to show, you're likely to get better than 78 and an opened pot to shoot at in the next few hands...

push. everyone knows gigabet is superaggressive and could be raising with any two. so this is the perfect spot to take a shot plus its better to push with mid-suited connectors than high suited connectors which are more likely to be dominated.

i really dont like it.. i know its aftertiming, but hes gonna call with pretty much anything hes raised with given his stack and given that its gigabet, so you just do a simple equity analysis vs his range, and 8 high isn't gonna do too well. I'd say you get a fold here about zero % of the time. Its a great move against live players who love to find a reason to fold.

Good performance and unlucky.  As others have said you don't have enough chips to get him to fold, so this is a gambling play more than anything.  You generally need 15bbs + to get someone to fold.  10bbs is a stealing stack not a resteal stack.

I was watching for quite a while, Gigabet was very active really bullying the table (as he should with his stack). I can see how it looks a bit rash but in the context of that table against that player I think Dewi made a perfect read on the situation, it took real ba**s to make the play, given blind situation to get up the prize money it was a good move IMHO. ;applause;

As it was 70% - 30% favourite to win and got unlucky (although not as bad a JP, that was a beat)

As for the rail criticism, pure green eyed envy :respect:

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I must admit to have chnaged my mind about it being the correct play, little more patience and really needed to get my chips in first, we live and learn :)up

I think you needed about 250-300k more chips to pull it off.

He has so many chips that he isnt passing any hand in that spot for your shove.

I didnt see this last night, sick way to go out after value shoving 8 high, :-)

Hello All

Ok

We should leave the cards alone for a second and focus purely on the tournament situation.

You are in a position where your poker instincts are telling you that you have to gamble. And gamble soon.

The question is whether that time is now.

You look down and see  7c- 8c.

How convenient. A gambling hand.

So your instinct to want to play a gambling hand in what is clearly a gambling situation in the tournament is absolutely to your credit. Yes you could fold here and last a bit longer but you are going to be faced with a push soon enough. I would not be over-critical of yourself for this train of thought here.

Ironically, if the raise was followed by a call or two, pushing with this hand makes perfect sense. A number of your opponents would be caught by your squeeze play and you could still get heads up with it if one of them re-raises. The extra value in the pot would then give your gamble the best possible odds.

Did you know that 7-8s has been statistically proven to be the hand that cracks aces most frequently? So even in that worse case scenario all is not lost. Two fresh cards is certainly a realistic hope.

However to your surprise you find that not only are you ahead but you have your opponent dominated.

There is an important point to note here.

You have done well in the tournament thus far. You are playing well. Your instincts are tuned in. Then you instinctively push all-in with this hand against an opponent you have judged to be a bit of a maniac.

Personally, I would not be too quick to dismiss this play in the cold light of day when you are feeling disappointed. This is clearly bloody good poker!

I would be feeling well pleased.

At the time when you were in the zone of it all you produced an instinctive read and a cracking play.

Because of all the books we read we learn to focus on the statistical expectation of hands and loose sight of the fact that poker is also a "feel" game.

You felt the time was right and bingo it was. I think it is good to have a bit of faith in instinctive play. Most world class players have complete trust in this aspect of their game.

Of course this could be complete nonsense.

If it was me I would love my play here. The fact you got knocked out is not representative of a bad play in my book.

But statistically you really want to be looking to push first here in an un-opened pot with any A any pair.

I would have pushed in that position too.  Unlucky Dewi.

87s, 76s, and 65s are all equally likely to crack AA (22.87% Vs AA with no shared suit)

However 65s has a very, very small increased chance of a tie over 76s, which in turn has a very, very small increased chance of a tie over 87s.

-Smart Money
Chairman of the Anal Mathematican Association. :)

wp dewi - you have hit some form...

Nice score for a few hours work.

I personally like this hand to push with too. You were just ul gigabit caught some of the flop.

I was watching this and at the time felt a push was a good play but after thinking on, you just did not quite have enough to make him fold. - it was close though ,he thought about it for a while( in online terms). Of course it was awesome when he turns over 7-5 - I think you both thought you would be live . I think 1st in is the key and you can fold here and still have fold equity. pretty close decision though especially near the Ft of a big tourney.

Gigabet pass exactly 0% of the time here therefore pushing with this hand is suicidal IMO, wait for a better spot.

this shove is absolutely awful, you are laying gigabet 2.84/1 which means he has to call as long as he is 26% against your range... to give you some idea, even if your range was QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, 75o is still 25% against that range so he has to call.  There is absolutely no way he can fold here so your play is ridiculously bad i'm afraid

Nobody can make a value raise pre flop with 8 high, thats for sure. So i can't agree with 'perfect read on the situation'

Dewi, im a loose maniac donk in tourneys and even i wouldn't push here. Your better off moving in with Qx, Kx, Ax against this type of player who you feel has nothing because your more likely to be in front. Pushing with 78s when Gigabet has more than plenty pot odds is pretty bad by your standards. as he could have you dominated with as minimal holding as 89.

I don't understand what your saying here. What i gather is you want to push because you feel 78s could be winning? Or you would just give up and pray your at least a 40% dog? Id take the high suited connectors anyday against Gigabet in this situation

I don't know...I have mixed feelings about the way this hand was played.

I like the push against most opponents as they can/will lay their poorer hands down. Against an oppo like gigabet who could have any two I am not so sure.

You pushed with a better pushing hand than Qx Kx etc as they are likely to be dominated so from that perspective I would be happy making that push. The choice of oppo to d it against might not have been the best though.

However, I wouldn't beat myself up about it too much. the push wasn't awfull. it was just against the wrong guy.

OK


I don't get this.

If the sole intention of the player is to get his opponent to fold then I agree that this is an unrealistic expectation.

However, Dewi does not state that this is the motivation for pushing here. He has 582,063 chips left. Every orbit of 7 hands is costing him 148,000. He is being faced by much bigger stacks.

He absolutely has to get in there and gamble with the intention of doubling up if he holds out any hope of winning the tournament. So now the decision has been made to gamble and try and get some chips about him at what point do we decide that this is a hopeless play? Is it a hopeless play when we see 7-8 vs 7-5? Or does it only become a hopeless play when the cards are dealt and the hand is lost? Or is a hopeless play because of what his opponent might have had rather than what he actually did have? Who doesn't actually like this situation?

For me, this is a great gamble at the right time. Just unlucky. Of course you could just wait to get anted away and leave quietly.

Incidentally:

Bellagio: $1000 buy-in No Limit Hold-Em Tournament

Blinds 100/200 with 25 ante

Player A raises 750 from early position, Player B with 12,000 chips flat calls.

Scott Fischman, with 2,225 chips, looks down to see  8c  9c. He pushes all-in.

He freely admits that there is only "a small chance both players will fold" here.

Ideally, he says that he wants to get heads-up with one of them and try and get some chips about him.

Actually, both players call the all-in and check it down to the river.

Fischman flops a full house and goes from 2,225 to over 7,000 chips...."putting myself in a good position"

Makes sense to me.

Sheets @ co could well be ribbing Gigabet for his filthy luck, not yourself.

lol - this is such a different situation and anyway it is result orientated.  It was a total freak that Dewi found himself ahead pre-flop - most times he would be slightly behind or way behind.  It doesn't take a genius to know that a button raise at this point doesn't mean much but you have to wait for a hand that is likely to be ahead - you are still gambling but generally as favorite and not underdog.

Given that 9th gets 50% more than 10th and 8th gets just over 150% more than 10th i'd be inclined to show a bit more patience here. Yes you want to go out fighting rather than just get antied away but you're reraising in this situation with 8 high knowing you are going to get called. Personally i'd rather wait until the next unraised pot and push all in blind, as it happens when the cards are flipped over its the perfect hand for you to see - but lady luck wasn't smiling on you this time. Had watched from about 60-70 players out and you played a good game throughout :)up

I don't get this at all anymore.

 I have been thinking about this hand a bit and, the fold is not really any good to you and all that matters than is that you have outs. Suited connectors are great for that and his cards are live against most opponents. He simply could not wait a lot longer to find a decent spot in which he could double up. stealing the blinds and then hoping for a premium hand with which to double up doesn't work. I have decided I like Dewi's play here. his reasoning stands up and he just got unlucky.

this is the only reason anyone can possibly find for a fold here.

78s really isnt a great tourney hand. Im sure the big online players will tell you that in the later stages of a tourney, they will bin suited connectors to raises aswell as small pocket pairs. These hands are better for cash game when most of the time every has between 50-200 big blinds and have the correct implied odds to call.

Dewi has 7bb and that isn't panic gamble time, you can wait 1 more round before you start throwing shit into the fan imo.

He doesn't need to wait for a "premium hand" just one that's ahead of a loose raiser's range.

OK


That's right. In one scenario the short-stack is pushing all-in with suited connectors into a raised pot with little chance of his opponents folding in order to gamble and improve his tournament position. In the other scenario the short-stack is pushing all-in into a raised pot with little chance of his opponents folding in order to gamble and improve his tournament position.

I am at a loss to explain why I made any connection.

Anyway, to be honest I am not entirely sure what I would do given this unique situation in this particular event. My initial inclination would be to fold and wait to push first with a bigger hand. This is my first inclination.

I am playing the devil's advocate by supporting suited connectors though. Just interested to see what the reaction would be.

I have lost count of the number of times I have waited for strength deep in tournaments and been knocked out with the best of it. I have pushed with suited connectors and won big pots. I have pushed with A-A and lost to suited connectors. I have pushed with suited connectors and got knocked out etc etc...The fact is that there are no hard and fast rules for the short stack gamble. Maybe you have been card dead for the past hour and feel that the time is right. Maybe you have won a couple of big pots with this hand already and just fancy it. Ultimately it is all a matter of timing.

For sure, showing a bit of heart is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

But I do find it interesting to see players in their teens and early twenties post with complete certainty that this play is "absolutely awful" and "ridiculously bad". If you give yourself such strict guidelines when short-stacked you may be missing out on some of the more creative and ultimately tournament winning plays. Who knows! Certainly folding in this instance doesn't get your 7-8 up against the 7-5 for example.

I would feel confident after this play. Why not? Confident players play better I think.

So you can't see the difference between raise call reraise and raise reraise?

And a hand a million miles from a final and one on the brink of one?

The differences are clear enough.

I was merely pointing out the similarities.

Three tables left at the casino last night.

How events panned out over the next couple of hours made me think of this hand.

I think that it is worth a mention here.

One of the players had been a bit card dead and so became relatively short-stacked.

The blinds were 400/800 and he had about 5,300 or something like that. There was a raise to 2,400 and one caller. It came to the short-stack who said.."Time to gamble"...and pushed all-in. The big blind called, as did the raiser and the caller. At showdown the short stack revealed  6d   7d for the made straight. He raked in a pot of about 22,000.

Suddenly this guy's whole attitude changed. He had some chips about him and started getting involved again. He was raising liberally and taking down his fair share of pots. Marginal hands that would have been mucked a few moments ago when he was short-stacked were now pushed with some aggression. He had gone from being detached from the game to well and truly back in it. And because he had chips he could now use them to get more chips. He was playing with confidence.

He was playing the game.

I was thinking...." I would have folded there with the 6-7".

It was clear he was behind and obvious he was going to be called.

He clearly could have waited and pushed with a better hand, but suited connectors have the ability to take down a big pot...and he gambled there to win a big pot.

The chips in that big pot gave him the play to get back into the tournament.

An hour or so later and with 2 tables remaining I was short stacked after going cold myself. I had been very patient. More patient than this guy. I had passed suited connectors a couple of times and my stack was dwindling. Eventually I got it in first with A-J and found a caller with A-10. I was knocked out to a flopped 10. Nice one!

I know this is just unlucky, but the point is that even if I had won that pot I am still struggling a bit, because ultimately my patience dwindled my stack. The win wouldn't have transformed my fortunes dramatically. 6-7 guy had quadrupled up, he had taken a big gamble before he was too far into the panic zone to win a big pot and get back into the thick of things. I had been more patient, waited for the maths to be right, took on a smaller gamble and failed to even double up.

Those people who can really play this game...need to play! This is the advantage they have over their opponents. But you cannot play without chips. All the moves you have are not part of your game anymore. You are sitting on your hands waiting for cards. If you leave it too late, a double up will only serve to give you more time to look for another double up. In the meantime your play is still restricted. Potential raising hands are mucked because they are not strong enough to commit with.

Suddenly you are not playing the game anymore.

Mathematical probability is the foundation of solid cash game play. It becomes a little less prevailant in tournament play though. Tournament time pressures mean the gambles you must take on are maybe a little more marginal than you would like. But you do have to gamble. When you become a relative short stack I don't think maths should hold anywhere near as much significance. It really is all a matter of timing.

The important thing though is that the more time you spend short-stacked the more opportunities you miss to actually play the game. And win the tournament.

Clearly, though my own tactic was to push first with strength but it didn't stop me liking the play from 6-7 guy though. Who was incidentally still chipped-up as I reached for my coat.

Thanks again for all the replies, just to confirm that I was not reraising to get him off the hand, I wanted the call as I was gambling and would have been happy with 2 live cards, next time though getting it in first with any 2 will be my priority.
 :)up

Mantis - while these little stories are nicely written, they don't prove anything other than gamblers like to gamble (nothing wrong with that) and they sometimes win.  I would actually have pushed in Dewi's position with a pretty wide range, prob about 30% of hands, but lowish suited connectors wouldn't have been in the range.  If there was a chance that he could fold then I def raise with them, but not when I'm going to be called.

Ok


This could be true

However, involvement in this thread has been worthwhile for me. Essentially we have been looking at the short-stack gamble and how different people act in that situation. As a more solid player I rarely push in these situations myself. But gamblers like to gamble in this situation and sometimes they win. I saw one well-timed gamble have a dramatic effect on a player's tournament last night. So it may be worth having a more flexible pushing range if the time feels right.

Looking at this difference might also help me with making calls from short stack gamblers in the future.

Also I found it interesting that Dewi made an instinctive call. I thought that it was a spot where a tight player would fold and a gambler would gamble. Dewi chose the gambling mentality, when others including yourself would not. It proved to be a well-time gamble pre-flop. So trying to incorporate this when playing might be worth some thought. Especially if you are a tight player.

People think differently

Your comment about "little stories" is evidence of that fact

Cheers for saying they're well written though 

I just love this Post, because it sums up my Tourney weakness precisely & exactly, paricularly THIS....

because ultimately my patience dwindled my stack. The win wouldn't have transformed my fortunes dramatically. 6-7 guy had quadrupled up, he had taken a big gamble before he was too far into the panic zone to win a big pot and get back into the thick of things. I had been more patient, waited for the maths to be right, took on a smaller gamble and failed to even double up.

I spend so much time "waiting for the maths" that before I know it, even from a positon of early chip strength (only rarely, like...) I find myself in the "push panic zone"! And the more times a shortie pushes, the more likely he is to bust, as Big-Stacks are always ready to take us shorties on.

If I could cure my "mid-tourney" freeze, I'd be twice the player.

Strangely enough a night out at the dogs got me interested in this thread.

As we all know poker is essentially a gambling game. Using the skill that you have can give you an advantage but when all is said and done you are still gambling. The question for the short stack is, when do you gamble and what odds are you willing to take?

Throughout the night I was backing favourites and following trainer's tips. Betting on the favourites and following the form gave me the best chance to win. I was playing tight and solid.

I lost.

And I kept losing.

Anyway, come the last race I was down the equivalent of the national debt of a small South American country.

Everyone was raging about the 6/4 favourite in trap 1. Apparently it was "nailed on"

However, because of my losses 6/4 was no good to me. I was substantially down and needed bigger odds than that. I backed trap 4 at 5/1 simply because it was 5/1 and these odds represented a chance to redress the balance.

Now to be honest trap 4 fell over at the first bend. The source of much amusement for my friends but quite in keeping with how the night had gone.

The rank outsider won at 7/1 though. A bit more pure gamble in me and I could easily have lumped it on the no-hoper in trap 6 and had a winning night.

The thing is that at some point in a tournament you will become short-stacked. If you take on an even money shot vs one opponent you could double up. It is desirable to get your chips in ahead here, but even still, there are no guarantees.

Another alternative is a bigger odds gamble such as 4/1. You will risk the same amount but the rewards are far greater. You will certainly go in behind but because of that risk a winning gamble will have a dramatic impact on your tournament in an instant.

You can wait and go all-in with Aces as a short stack, get 3 callers and loose.

Anyway the point is that maths becomes far less significant when we become short. It is the pure gamblers terrain now. The only question is whether you want to take evens or a bigger price for a more dramatic result. These are just two of the alternatives you can explore.

"Gamblers like to gamble and sometimes they win"...never a truer word has been spoken.

Incidentally although I often hear the phrase...."The world is going to the dogs!"...I can confirm that there was only about two or three hundred people there last Saturday.

 rotflmfao rotflmfao


excellent post as usual sir.

I spend so much time "waiting for the maths" that before I know it, even from a positon of early chip strength (only rarely, like...) I find myself in the "push panic zone"! And the more times a shortie pushes, the more likely he is to bust, as Big-Stacks are always ready to take us shorties on.

If I could cure my "mid-tourney" freeze, I'd be twice the player.
[/quote]

I agree - this exact thing happened to me at the GUKPT this weekend when down to less than 17k chips I needed to double up to get enough chip equity to become involved in hands. Blinds had just hit 600/1200 with a running ante of 75.
I had been card dead for 40 hands and bluffed 1 all in with A rag already just to keep alive. Pushed with AK and ran into QQ with no improvement. Would love not to have to coin flip but find at least once in mid tourney you have to do this. Next time will try 67 ;-)

seen u pull this move too often.

eventually it caught up wit u at the worst possible  time.

ul/