blonde poker forum

So its 400-800 with a 25 running ante, 9 handed table

£500 NLHE Festival event


you are in SB

 Jc 4h, extremely unpromising

20,000 chips


Mike Magee limps UTG, 25,000 chips

Ray Hammer limps UTG+1, 16,000 Chips

Paul Zimbler limps in CO, 30,000 chips

Richard Ashby limps on button 35,000 chips

I am completely mystified by this outbreak of limping but nonetheless,

4,475 in pot

400 to you to complete...

well you never know at 10-1 I might hit a perfect flop, I complete

BB checks, 16,000 or so


flop  Kd Jd 3d

check with a view to check fold in most scenarios

all check

turn  3h

all check

river  4c


this has given me, completely OOP, a mucky old two pair, no diamonds and counterfeited by any King out there


Magee, Zimbler, Ashby are all aggressive players but no one has shown me anything having had two rounds to bet

value bet?

if so how much into the 4,875 pot?

check call?

check fold?

No bets post flop or turn, possible trap but I would make pot size bet. I would then fold to any raise, but worth a punt to get the pot? (Having said that i would have probably bet on the turn.)

bet the turn, check the river.

couldn't be certain about no-one slow playing there. or maybe checking with a low flush. so check-call.

 ;all-in; turn ;fold; river

I would be more than happy if this was checked round (there are more than 200 hands beating you), but I might call a smallish bet.  So I check disinterestedly and watch the other players closely. 

I'm with double up here. you can't lead out here. check and fold to any substantial action. there is nothing here for you you only have the Jack. If it was a really small bet made by someone on the button taht is the only bet on the river I might consider calling it..otherwise I'd want nothing to do with this hand.

I'd check/call if it's not too much.

Ok

The presence of 3 diamonds and one over-card on the flop are a source of worry for you, namely because you do not hold diamonds yourself.

Everyone else involved in this hand most probably feels the same way.

Although there are 4,475 chips in the pot each player has only contributed 800. As such they will not defend their limping contribution with much ferocity, particularly if they do not hold diamonds themselves.

When the turn comes another three I would be inclined to lead out with a small bet. Something in the region of 1200.

By betting small here you represent a slow-played flush or trip 3's. The small bet is convincing because it looks like you are trying to generate action. You are trying to pot build because you are the player with the made hand.

Like we said, the board is a worry. You small "please call me" bet only compounds that worry for anyone without a flopped flush. I don't think anyone checks the flop and calls this bet with a King.

I would not be surprised to see everyone fold here.

Importantly, your 1200 gets you some information, whereas checking and waiting for someone else to take a stab at the pot does not.

If you get one caller I would be thinking  Ad or made flush.

So on the river I would bet 2400 and see what my opponent does.

 Ad probably folds. Made flush raises.

I think using your chips to pose the questions and put the board-connected worry into your opponents minds is a far better play than using them to check call.

summary - this scary board is a good bluffing opportunity.

(although we will never know whether we are actually bluffing, unless we get called)

I checked the end intending to check call

It checked round and I won the pot

a bet on the turn was right I feel, hindsight notwithstanding

Against that many players, i like the check call line. GL in ME Rich.

I think it's check call for me.

I'd honestly just have mucked pre-flop even given the 10-1 odds

yeah I think you did the right thing there.

If you bet out you are opening the door for someone to bluff you off it with nothing.

In this case they'd probably all have folded if you bet out so you wouldn't have picked up any extra chips by betting here. By check caling you might have got someone to bluff off another 1000-1500 chips.

Ok

Personally, I do not like the check-call mentality here, even though it does seem to be the general concensus.

Check-calling is reminiscent of cash-game play in my book.

The board is a scary one, this is true. But that fear is not exclusive to just you.

Everyone checks the flop. So either someone has flopped the flush (possible) or no-one else likes the board (probable).

I find that in situations like this, the pot is usually won by the player who takes the initiative and announces that HE is the one with the hand that everyone fears.

Your story-telling on the turn has additional plausibility because of your position. Leading out into the field with a small bet indicates strength here. The same move on the button after a second round of checking, or a larger bet, is not so convincing in my eyes.

Another plus point for value-betting this hand is that it is only a limped pot and so resistance will be low.

It is possible that the players behind you may not believe your story. But the presence of other players behind THEM works in your favour.

The REAL hand could still be out there so re-stealer's are shackled.

By taking the initiative you also get the chance to manage the size of the pot yourself. Betting 1200 on the turn and getting a couple of calls is far better than checking and calling a bet of 2400. By betting 1200 on the turn and then 2400 on the river you only put 3600 in, whilst giving yourself a chance to win the pot unchallenged. Checking and then calling a pot-sized bet on the river means you put more in, on someone else's terms, and can only win with the best hand.

Other players with this check-call mentality may well call your turn bet with A-J, Q-J or 10-J, with or without a diamond.

They would then probably be inclined to call your smallish river bet as well...after allowing you to outdraw them. A horrible way to get your chips in.

A pair of 4 's makes the same free money out of you that you made out of these guys if you are check-calling.

If you do get called on the river by the made flush ( no raise because the board was paired) you have still spent less and got more than if you check-called to the made flush.

The "more" you get for your money is that the next time you flop something big you lead out small into the field and get all the business you need.

Mantis - read the original post - the question posed was "what is the play on the river?"  That is why everyone is saying check-call a reasonable bet.  No one is saying check call flop or turn.

LOL

My post shows how I would play the hand. It is an alternative.

Because, I play the hand this way I would not be faced with this question. So I don't know what I would do.

If you check-call the river you may have the best hand or you may not have the best hand. Who knows?

My post may not answer the specific question but it may prove useful to someone. Thinking about the hand proved useful to me.

Who did your post prove useful to??

His

Post

Proved

Useful

To

Me

Interesting that we both think alike Flush.....

Mantis


Flush

Neither of us answer the question...

...and both of us post really interesting stuff

Whether or not the rest of your post is interesting or not is not the point (your points are well taken and a valid way to play the hand).  Ppl were responding to a question by the OP and you appear to be taking issue with their replies when they have IMO provided the optimal way to play the situation that they were asked to find themselves in.  On the other hand, you don't feel that the question asked merits a response because you would have played the hand differently.

Usually when an experienced player like Tightend poses a question there is a point worth discussing - in this case whether  to bet the river or check call with a fair hand but far from the nuts.
 
Presumably when you were at school you got a lot of "well written and interesting, but not the question asked - 0/10"

Ok

Listen, I don't want to waste my time getting into a war of words over this. Take my word for it though I don't take issue with any response to a posted question, whether I agree or not.

What puzzles me is posts that have no use.

I took some time to show how I play the hand and demonstrate how I would not be faced with this predicament on the end.

A poker hand is a series of connected plays. So we are in an awkward river situation because of what PRECEEDED it.

We have no information about the hands that are out there and we would be check-calling a bet blind without a clue if we had the best hand or not.

I think we could play this hand differently and as such avoid putting ourselves in this situation.

Yes, we could just answer that specific question in complete isolation. Q. What would you do on the river? A. I would check-call. OK.

We could however, provide each other with a bit more information and discuss the hand generally. In dissecting the hand we actually provide an EXTENSIVE answer to the question and look at things from a different perspective.

This may provide some members with some answers and therefore has some use.

Doubleup, your posts are designed to highlight the failings in my posts and provide nothing of use about the hand for fellow members. What is the point in that? If you don't like what I say then don't read what I write.

fair point and good post about play on the turn. Of course as the hand played out check and call a small bet on the river is the only way to go but it's always worth avoiding that situation.

Is there any chance you can get rid of the double spacing in all your posts, i am heavily dyslexic and it takes me about 10 minutes just to read one!