blonde poker forum

Tikay,

why all the moaning about the young guns going to much all-in and "not plaing the game properly"? My view:
* The game is called NO LIMIT for a reason.
* If you do not like big raises and allins, play LIMIT poker instead.
* If the raises are still to big join my grandma`s weekly canasta game  ;D

Keep up the otherwise good work, Buzzer

Hope this is the right Buzzer- Look forward to doing battle on the 26th mate. You fancy the same prop bet you offered to edge in Deauville with me??? ;)
ariston

I think what Tikays getting at is that there's more skill to the game than that. Tony's an admirer of people who can "play down the streets." there are times when All-in is the move but players can over bet by moving all-in and fail to get best value from the winning hands. Playing at the 20/30 rebuy level as I do, that's often the inevitable move  for alot of the night but if you're playing WSOP with 10,000 chips and blinds are 10/20 how are you going to get value out of AK if all you've evr done is push in pre-flop.
 I think you're mis-understandingTikays game if you think he's scared of the All in bet.

I will reply to buzzer (welcoome to blonde forum, buzzer!) properly later, but Adam has my "take" on "all-in" about right.

I do NOT have a problem with all-in as one of a range of weapons we have at our disposal in NL poker.

I DO have a problem with folks who don't understand the value & purpose of moving all-in.

As an example, I regularly see guys go all-in for 5k or 10k early in a tourney, when the pot consists of just the blinds at 25-50. I find that incomprehensible. Can anyone explain to me how that can be considered as "good play"? I saw it repeatedly in Deauville & Monte Carlo.

And I have a difference of view with those whose ONLY move is all-in, time after time. Are they frightened to play down the streets? Are they abdicating their decision making process? Is there any guile or cunning or skill in it?

How often do you see El Blondie or Devilfish or Ram or Thewy go all in early with 10k to steal 75 chips?

So all-in is FINE. It's one weapon among many. Use it wisely, & mix it up with other plays. Consider the odds before doing it. But all-in as the only move? Nah, I cant buy that as good poker.

But, & we could fall out big time here buzzer, I take exception to the inference in your opening line that tikay is not a young gun. OK, I am nearing the end of my time as a young gun - a sort of Senior Young Gun I'd describe myself as, but I still see myself as young. Well, young-ish.......

u make a very good point tikay, i personally play relitivly the same way, i hardly ever go all-in, myself i see it as a sign of weekness, forinstance in the gutshot main event, only the final hand did i go all-in, and only then because i had to make a bet of 4k ish and i only had jsut over 4k, so the only move i had was all-in,   many times though players would go all-in and risk all there stack with no hand,  about 5/6 players i saw go all-in in 1st pos without a hand trying to steal and getting called and drawing dead,   i allways think it is better to manage/play your stack, than risk your whole stack on 1 move 1 bluff ?  i am realitivley new to the game, have only been playing for 2 years but i know i got a long way to go, and im allways looking for help  ;)

for instance, 1 hand i had that i was wondering about going all-in, agaist a week player but decided agaist it was this

my BB i had a10 offsuit,   player 2 from the button raises 1.5xbb  i flat call ( my stack is week 7k aftre that call) the flop comes j q 4 rainbow,  i bet half my stack 3750, and he duley turns over aj and folds, but if i had moved all-in there he would of most likely called, ?

stu

Hello,
i always judged how well i was playing by how many times i risked all my chips, but just of late i have come to realise that you NEED to be risking your chips in order to progress with a decent stack.
My strategy now has become one of identifying the aggressor on the table, or out and out bluffer and at the first opportunity get all my chips in against him with a good hand. I am not trying to outplay him any longer cuz if i miss i'll most likely have a decision to make for a lot more chips.
The only other times i will do it is if i have someone outstacked and throw em in as a scare tactic.
I will say though that the sudden? rash of alliners (new verb?) is a huge pain in the ass, you can only really call with premium hands and even then you tend to get outdrawn a lot!!!!!
Just my bit,
ian

I agree that the lack of willingness to play down the board is a massive sign of weakness and probably lack of experience-- Typical poor internet play in my view.

500 Freezeout last year-- 3000 chips.
 I was UTG the very first hand of the tourney and looked down at AA.. Blinds 25 /50 I raised to 150-- all folded to the Button who then reraised ALL IN !!!!>

Couldn't believe it!! I knew I was ahead but did I really want to go out first hand--

 I called of course ( after checking my hand twice!!) and he turned over QQ-- I survived the board and went on to get into the money..

 I think that the re-raiser just wanted some table image but over raising to win a few chips is certainly an increasing feature of the NL game and one some of us seniors can exploit..--LOL  

Malc- M
 8)

tikay, I see you more as an old blunderbuss.

Yapp, this is the real Buzzer.
Ariston, while I surely respect your play I think there are enough "format doubts" to enable me to make you the same offer. Contact me on my email for details...

Young gun here - is Red-Dog that the geezer that ain't a great player?

See you in Luton on Wednesday fella.

I absolutely hate to see ALL IN plays, especially early on in tournaments.  I don't think some players realise that the only way they are gonna get called is if they are absolutely dead.  I love to see pots played, raised, called and re-raised on every street and the person who plays the best in that hand winning.  Of course this can only be done where the two players involved have good sized chip stacks or the starting chips you are given are big enough to allow play (e.g. 10,000 chips and antes start at 25-50) - but still you see some all in play to win the 75 or 125 in the middle  - QUE PASA???!!

Again, my point EXACTLY.

Come on buzzer - you started all this malarky, defend your corner!

Just played a stt on blue square, i raise 200 with AK suited, reraise allin, i call.
He has AJ off!!!
Guess the rest......first hand. Sooooo annoying,
ian

God Im going to sound like my Dad used to sound when he started spouting off to me now years ago lol,, I think everyone has to face the fact that poker has changed beyond recognition over the last couple of years,, this is due almost entirely to the internet poker rooms, now like most things in life change has advantages and dissadvantages... I think that live tournys have gone down hill steadily,,,  I decided 2 years ago not to play any small tournys where there internet players were starting to play and instead only played larger freezeout tourny's.. however as the months have rolled by the players that I tried to avoid climbed up the foodchain so to speak and now you cant avoid those "all in's" with 99 to win a small anti and in your really unlucky you find a big pair and get outdrawn lol... Also for the last couple of months I have decided that if u cant beat em then join em and have been playing full time on the internet where Im going from total high's to ulcers about 20 times a day these young guys will stick it all in and Im talking thousands with something like A3 vrs your AQ with an A on the flop to find they river a 3 lol.. but thats the modern game so like it or lump it and I choose to try and hold my own and change with it if I can... On a serious note tho I really do feel that tournys are being seriously devalued by the online qualifications that now occur... I consider myself very lucky to have lived the dream and played in tyhe wsop main event as I now have no desire to do so again the thought of sitting down with god knows how many online qualifiers who are virtually freerolling and willing to chuck it all in on some middlepin draw or something outlandish then say the famous words as they crack your aces "srry but I was SUITED " lol... I think its a shame that most big tourny's now are nolonger a test of skill and nerve as you stick your chips in knowing that its cost you say 10k and as this year I think has shown has now become whoever is lucky enough to dodge the mines and the "srry but my 6 8 was suited "wins... however on a positive note it has lead to the poker explosion which Im sure will continue to grow and grow beyond even as we know it now... I just hope that some of the old school can survive the younggun onslaught and get to the other side lol

Wow, great post Andy, lots of brain mulch there.

I am hoping buzzer comes back & reaffirms his case, this is getting very interesting.

But I did find your post very insightful, you have clearly watched & identified certain trends.

At Deauville & Monte Carlo it was jaw-dropping to see these guys moving all-in, hand after hand after hand. I never played MC, but I semi-d in Deauville, so even a grinder like tikay CAN deal with the "sliders" as Greg Junior Hill calls em.

But back to buzzers point, we just seem to have a different take on the more conservative merits of playing down the streets, & the brute force, don't need to think, shovel the lot in brigade.

It boiils down to skill v who's got the biggest balls. And, coincidentally, this is one of the reasons Competition Omaha sadly seem to be dying, the pot-ramming multiple rebuy merchants have prevailed. But when they do Omaha Freezeouts, as they did at The Vic, the players - the REAL players - return.

But let's be fair to buzzer & let him expand his case for the all-in boys. He has made a point, & he may well be right. But I answered his question.
 
Good stuff!

Played with Tk in deuville, both agreed standard of play was poor. Why risk going out of the touney to win a bag of spanners ?
Its not because their great aggressive players, its because their weak and hate making decisions. They would rather go with lady luck than see a flop and decide for themselves.
As in life, some people hate making really big decisions and thats because of one thing FEAR.

Well said bookiebasher.

And for those that do not know, bookiebasher is Jamie Moult, who played 3 comps in Deauville. He finished 5th in the 500E Freezeout - and he had a hellish seat in the Final - & won the 1,000E Freezeout, in a Final that included Devilfish, Willie Tann, & King of the Lairy's Riverdave Penly, so he speaks from experience about the standard of play generally in Deauville.

And even Riverdave, the supreme all night at it merchant, never, or only very sparingly, uses the "shove 'em all-in & hope" method. Same applies to Devlfish & Willie, these guys PLAY......

The structure of EPT events, given that the sponsor is PokerStars & they (quite rightly) flog it to death, means that there are an abnormally high number of online qualifiers in these events. And I am not in the "internet players are crap" camp, not at all, but it's a different game online.

So, for example I had Elky on my table in one comp in Deauville. Elky plays on Stars for amounts I can only dream about, & he's hugely successful I am told. But he had NO IDEA what to do in "live" play in Deauville. He must have passed out of turn, or bet out of turn, a hundred times. Thing is, online it's IMPOSSIBBLE to act out of turn, the software wont allow it.

Another guy persistently "checked" inside the betting line when he had a stack of big chips in his hand - tapped the table with his pile of chips in effect. Eventually, some geezer says "that's a bet" & all hell broke loose! Mind you, he was French.

And I think part of this is what AndyG alluded to earlier.

Keep it coming guys, this is fascinating stuff.

" Had a hellish seat in the final " ....presume that's because you were sat to my immediate right, raising my BB with 94 off, but hasten to add, not going allin !!!!
Would rather play the all in merchants any day of the week. They may win 99 % of the time they go all in, the problem is the other 1%.

Yeah, but I tried the 9-4 trick with the Boy Thewy in Gutshot with an even better hand - T-2 - & the idiot called with Q-2.......

But we PLAYED, that's the difference. Pitted our wits & played, not just moved all-in. If I wanted to play Bingo I could have gone anywhere. Blackpool, for example......

less of the blackpool jabs!, lol

You a Blackpool boy then? Hush now, that's our little secret.

the all in move is sometimes the only move available
with a decent structure and a nice blind to average stack ratio
the all in is not needed problem is all too often there isnt enough chips
to raise and fold so the only play is to raise all in

i played last night and after the rebuys i was only all in twice

once after the river when i had the nuts and a player bet into me
with obly 1.5 x his raise back i cant really not go all in

and the 2nd time after bet 50% of my stack from cutoff
with AJs (PLHE) for the BB to defend with 66 i am left with no option
but to call

played properly geting all your chips in the middle should be a weapon rarely used

"a weapon rarely used". Spot on. Used that way, it's a potent weapon, but do it every time, & you gonna get caught eventually.

We seem to be unanimous on this - where are you buzzer?

He must have took his batteries out

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Beauty Jimbo.......

Where is Buzzer? Here he is, just returning from the football game Bayern Munich vs Chelsea London. Was almost as exciting as playing poker.

Tikay, being a newbie here I did not know opening a new thread means automatically having to constantly stay online and having to defend myself... :P

Kidding apart I made my point and do not have too much to add. But I will try to clarify:
* No, I do not like early allins like for 10.000 to win 400 etc.
* But I think an allin play (pre-flop, after the flop, after the turn or after the river) can be a mathematically correct play more often than some of you (including Tikay) may think
* The above is especially true with big blindes/antes and late in tourney or near the bubble
* An allin takes away the possibility of a re-steal (re-resteal or re-re-resteal)

Like Ivey said to Lederer: "You get your chips your way, I get them my way...."

Nicely concluded buzzer, you sure started a good thread there, well done.

Did Chelsea win? More importantly - MUCH more important - did the mighty Brentford beat Tranmere?

Brentford won ..which means Luton are promoted

Brentford won? Whahoo! Another goal avalanche no doubt.

Yep it was a whopper - 1-0!!!

Yup, we call that an avalanche.