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You are mixing things up, you decide to limp UTG with 99

Its quite late on in a tourney, you have just under 20k, blinds 800 1600

Immediately to your left is a flat call. SB folds. BB checks

Flop 2 2 5.

BB checks

Now you need to find out if BB has a 2.

5400 in the pot, so you bet out 3200

Other limper immediately calls.

The BB folds.

Turn Card is an 8 - still rainbow.

So 11800 in the pot, the other limper has you covered, but not by much.

You now make a mistake and check - hoping to induce a bet , then re raise all in.

But the limper sets YOU all in.

Point 1) - Do you agree that a push when the 8 arrives is a better play?

Point 2) - Do you call the all in?

Point 3) - What do you think the likely holding of the other limper is.

(PS Geo The Sarge need not reply lol)

1. not necessarily, but I probably would have pushed

2. yes

3. could be anything, a bluff (AK, AQ) is also likely given the weakness you've shown here. Would not be surprised to see either 77 or 88, TT a possibility. 5-6? 5-4?. Higher pairs less so because few people limp in after a limper with higher pairs.

P.S. How come you're "mixing up" with 12.5 big blinds?

I have been raising alot, and am trying to use "reverse" psychology in limping utg - ie AA hand.

ie, raising alot, and now a limp - should be seen as Strength

If that makes sense

Yes the check on the turn was to indicate weekness, but with a view to check raise.

Also I rule out AK / AQ as they would of raised preflop i think

I think it does, if you're deepstacked... but with 12.5 BBs I am always thinking about 'making a stand', how and when and with what two cards. The last thing I'd be thinking about is mixing stuff up, because I realistically have so few weapons at my disposal.

Yep good point.

Why have you dismissed AK or AQ

you said if he had either of these two hands he would of raised you up preflop  even though you were trying to show strength
therefore if you have dismissed AK/AQ for these reasons shouldnt you be also dismissing a pair bigger than yours

Also i would of bet at least the pot on the flop you have learnt no info on the other limpers hand
for me you have to push on the turn but after the check you should call  unless you get some monster tell from him that he has you beat

Cheers for that.

Exactly my thought process. Well 5 minutes AFTER the hand had finished!

I did not have him on AK AQ or an overpair.

I was confused as to what he would call on the flop and move all in on the turn with.  My thought process was 55 or 88 and he takes me for AA/KK and thinks I cannot lay it down. Or an A8 suited and thinks he is good (although I do not like the call on the flop with this hand).

This is my biggest weekness in my tourney play, I try to "analyse" too much - and by analyse I mean what hand I would have making his bets. One thing I am working on, but fell down on this occasion again.

Incidently I folded, after putting the clock on myself. More annoyed with not pushing the turn than folding tbh.

I would put a bluff waaaay ahead of 55 or 88, people seem far more keen to underbet those than blast them.

I put AQ or AK because I was thinking of an overcard bluff, it's difficult to come up with a hand that will call the flop, except sometimes a big ace might call there if they figure you'll bet with anything having started the action preflop.

who was the player?  

did he have you covered by much?  How many players left in comp?

how much did you expect him to bet for you to check raise him?

if he checks behind you and an over card comes on the turn what would you do?

questions i would be asking myself on the turn

I know the player.

Had spotted him making week bluffs to pick up pots.

Has me covered by 5000 odd. 30 odd left from 170

Agreed, a check from him behind me would of been a nitemare if an overcard comes.

I asked myself those same questions as soon as he went all in on the turn - too late by then

Have already agreed that I should push on the turn.

I like the idea but 99 is a big hand in its own right, if you are going to make the play then do it with a 78 type hand.

I'd have to call here. Your show of weakness on the turn means he could have any two cards. You already have plenty invested in the pot and your overpair might still be good..(in fact you think it is as you were looking to checkraise knowing he'd never take you for a 2's from under the gun).

Not even lying to you, we discussed this hand for about 2 hours over dinner @ BB4. No-one gave me a sound answer.
This is where you need to know your player. Ill give you an analysis from 2 perspectives. In one he's top drawer, in the second hes average/poor .
Geo, no offence meant here mate, i love your play v a rock :)


1)
OK, lets say he's a strong player. UTG strong player limps. Medium stack and he probably has premium, M3 prolly mucks 99 utg here most of the time. 1010+/AK would be normal range. You put him on a big hand, so you dont get involved with shite as he only has 12.5 BB, ie not enough impied to warrant an A2, 2X type hand. Pocket pairs have value here, as there is less likelihood of a raise rtb due to UTG Rock limper, so the limp is all you have to invest. Medium to low pp's 1010- is what i have a strong player on here, in addition to AK/AQ.

Flop come 225. Rock leads out into a 3-WAY pot after the BB has checked. HE calls. He simply must have a hand here, i doubt he is capable of strong representation bluffs, theres about 5 ppl in that cardroom capable of setting up that move. He doesnt think you are continuation betting into 2 others on that type of board so he has to have you beat. 

2) Weak player. He limps behind a UTG limper. He could have anything. He calls your flop bet on the flop. WTF CAN HE HAVE? A5, A2, 55,22?
You check the 8 turn and he moves all-in. He DOESNT SHOVE WITH A MADE FH OR TRIPS HERE. You have to call here from a strong=weak perspective and the hands ur beating outnumber the hands ur losing against. Got to use some banter and bollocks to find out if he has you beaten. A5 looks likely for a call on the flop, along with 66+77.


FINAL POINT. Field is massive, ur gonna have to risk a lot and you wanna win this pot here. IF you set up the check raise i reckon you have to call here too.
But it took a lot of talk for my opinion to be swayed, originally i thought is was an tough pass. Flat call on the flop means you can rule out A8.

I'm mainly a cash player, but I can't understand this logic.

If you push the turn, I can't see any of the hands you're beating folding. Likewise AK/AQ hands won't be calling you.

Whereas by check/calling his all-in, you're still losing to any hands that are ahead of you of course, but you also put yourself in a favourable position over hands that are trailing your 99, including a bluff attempt.

Or do you think that by jamming, TT/JJ may fold?

OK, from a tourney prospective.

There are so so many danger cards if he checks behind you.

Also, in a tourney I think it is best to put the other player to a decision for their tournament, rather than being faced with calling all your stack with a moderate hand.

Alex, nice post. Yes we did discuss this hand at length, I can remember you know lol

100% agree, i only check here if i know he is going to bet



100% disagree.

As i said to you at the time mate i would call here. Sarge told me straight after the hand what he had too when the table was breaking. Do you know/want to know?

I already know m8 :(

Interesting thread...

I particularly like the comments from Smart Money....

I am almost exclusively a tournament player and my mentality is completely different. The fundamental of successful tournament play is SURVIVAL. Making money/chips is a secondary consideration. This is so because clearly you can't make money if you've been knocked out. In cash play survival is not an issue...it's all about making $$. So the two mentalities are completely at odds with each other.

To answer the points you raise M3...

Point 1) - Do you agree that a push when the 8 arrives is a better play?
Absolutely yes. You have decided to play the 9-9 here and have hit an almost perfect flop...(or as perfect as tournament time pressures allow). The only danger is the BB holding a deuce and you quickly find out that this is not a factor so I now feel almost certain you have the best hand.

You bet out and the other limper IMMEDIATELY CALLS. This tells me he does not have a BIG HAND. There is another active player in the BB behind him and there would be at least some consideration from him with regards to how he is going to proceed here....does he want to rope in the BB? This would require some element of thought. The immediate call also tells me he doesn't have an over-pair. Why? Again he has the same active player and also yourself to consider. A hand such as J-J is vulnerable in a multi-way pot so if he didn't raise pre-flop he would certainly raise now.

In tournaments I ALWAYS press hands that I think are ahead but I feel are vulnerable. Getting tricky here and taking your foot off the gas can lead you into either out-draw or tough decision making territory. And I absolutely hate calling all my chips in with the worst hand. So I definitely move on the turn. In situations like this my opponent is going to have to show me a hand that beats me. If he can then fair play....but like you say...it will be his decision to make not mine. You may not make as much as you could if you avoid playing this hand in the trappy way you have but remember the key in tournaments is survival and this point is particularly prudent with marginal hands.

The only downside to this hand is the fact that you didn't raise. I absolutely hate going broke in an un-raised pot. If I had raised pre-flop I push the turn with confidence. In this un-raised pot I simply push and hope I reach 5 seconds without hearing "call"....and then relax.

Point 2) - Do you call the all in?
Absolutely yes. Don't like this anywhere near as much as pushing myself. But I believe I have the best hand. There is absolutely no way he has 5-5 or 8-8 or any hand as big as this. Any change of behaviour during a hand is suspicious. If he flopped a boat he slow-played by calling...why would he suddenly change that strategy on the turn and quickly push. Slow play - Quick play is a big tell for me. Either he is trying to rope you in or push you out. Which is it? The fact he can't decide along with the pre-flop limp (after a limp) and the immediate post-flop call makes me think he's weak here.

Point 3) - What do you think the likely holding of the other limper is.
I like the idea of a suited 3-4 here. A limp after a limp pre-flop. An immediate call when he picks up the open-ended straight draw and the sudden change in attitude to move all-in and expose your "weakness" (with outs) on the turn.

If the chips go in on his terms now and he gets lucky you have not survived because of your trappy play. By checking the turn you have been put to an awkward decision for all your chips and probably folded the best hand.

Out of interest...what did the bugger have M3?

Good Luck

Do you have nothing better to do? lol... I can't even be bothered to read all that!!!!!!

He told me he had A8. May well have told M3 something different! lmao.

Yep, well I did think that A-8 made sense....turn play in isolation...but then thought that calling the flop bet with A-8 is just plain ridiculous. A least there is some rhyme or reason to calling the flop with 3-4.

The above and admittedly lengthy post in brief just for you Rookie...

You have the best hand...move with it.

Wow, exactly wat I said when I said "I'd have to call here. Your show of weakness on the turn means he could have any two cards. You already have plenty invested in the pot and your overpair might still be good..(in fact you think it is as you were looking to checkraise knowing he'd never take you for a 2's from under the gun)."...scary, isn't it?

excellent post Mr Mantis, Sir.

You have an excellent poker brain Boldie.....

I don't like the check on the turn, even with the intention of check-raising.

The process of putting your opponent on a hand must start from the off.

What information do we have? Early limp after a limp (not a big pair in my eyes) + immediate flop-bet call (Any pp must raise here to define their hand). This equation must equal 3-4 or perhaos A-5 for any opponent with an ounce of credibility. If our opponent has shown an interest in the flop with a flat call why when we offer them a free river card to improve do we think they are going to bet? The 3-4, A-5 or indeed ATCs will probably accept that offer to improve.

Absolutely any river card other than a deuce or a 9 is a card that could beat us. So we could be pushing into the best hand now or check-calling into the best hand.

If I was M3's opponent I see him limp under the gun....maybe a pp....bet the flop...maybe an over-pair to the flop?? Then suddenly slow down when the 8 comes. I think that maybe he just filled-up himself. This in itself would slow me down. So I just don't think that we can guarantee action on the turn.

The man does ship it on the turn. This seems weird to me and can only spell weakness or a draw.

Why cant he have a hand like 2/3,  A2  K2s? Those hands are vulnerable enough to shove on the turn.

co za ryba

Absolutely, I completelty agree, and I can see how you may regret not pushing the turn if he checks behind.

However, I don't understand how you can regret not pushing the turn seeing as he jammed. You can't be in a worse EV position here than if you did the pushing, surely? (With the very unlikely exception that he had TT/JJ and was so tight that he may fold to your all-in.)

I agree with smart money here...

Now that our opponent has pushed on the turn the call is a must.

The only reason I don't like the check is in case a check follows it and then we're lost on the river. Also I would only check with a clear intention of calling if this happened. So my decision would be made in advance of checking. I wouldn't check and then decide what to do after my opponent acts.

My opponent's position UTG+1 make me discount him holding a 2. This may be a generalisation but, specifically in tournaments going with hunches and generalisations is often necessary.

Can I just cut this out & keep it please.

 :)up

Just a question. When the buyins increase and the quality of player increases, who calls here.

Anyone who auto-calls an all-in bet from a strong player here is a nut.

This clearly might be the most obvious piece of advice in the history of poker, I know. But something that really opens my eyes is the massive gulf in mentalities between cash and tournament play. I regularly see top-draw cash players getting ripped up in tournaments...but similarly excellent tournament players are lost at the cash tables. I think the two disciplines are a million miles apart and I very rarely see players who get equally good results in both forms of the game.

In M3's example he starts the hand with about 20k. When the turn card drops there is 11,800 in the pot. His mentality is to check-raise the turn and make the most of his hand. As a pure tournament player this is something I just wouldn't do. The risk of it going wrong and not "surviving" is too great for me. I do slow-play often but I would need better than 9-9 to do this.

To take the 11,800 on offer, increase my stack nicely, give the table a taste of my aggression, survive this marginal situation and move onto the next hand is fine by me here. If I do push the turn, my opponent may call with A-8 or a draw and I get paid all the more. If he doesn't then the 11,800 is risk free.

M3 looks to check-raise because he thinks he has the best hand but then lays it down after the all-in. What changed?

I personally auto-call here due to the information I have seen from the player in question. If the buy-ins were greater I doubt my opponent would play his hand in this way. If he does then I call and he will have to show me a hand that beats me. Having complete confidence in how you have read a marginal situation is often good enough to win the tournament you are playing in.

Nice replies again fella's

I had every intention of calling the all in but,,,,,,,,,

I must admit, the all in threw me as I had not seen aggression by this person in these situations before, like I said it was usually a "week" steal attempt he made.

This then had me second guessing myself as to him thinking I had an overpair and would not be able to get away from the hand if he had hit s FH.

I folded, but as I said not without great deal of thought. The fold came when I could not put him on a hand with the call on the flop. If this player had made the same or similar move before I would not hesitate in calling, but as it was totally different from how he had played before , it threw me.

As soon as I folded, I turned to Alex and said "I made a bad fold there, and i've blown my tourney"

This is a very special result that has been twisted because a lot of people know the outcome, and the fact that Geo had A8. In a comp of high quality players, you are walking out the door early if you call this bet.

The plan was to get the chips in on the turn by check-raising. Now that our opponent has done the job for us, personally I have to call.....irrespective of the outcome...and irrespective of the quality in the field. And would be walking out the tourney early if I'm wrong.

You never seen an overbet with the nuts? If the structure is good enough, i can find better spots than here.

I agree its a call in this comp though.

Hi Paul and those who have posted, i've taken a great deal from this and I thank you.

We spoke shortly after this and respect to Paul that, as we agreed my call on the turn wasn't the best play he at no time criticised me, instead criticising himself for the way he had played the hand, again thanks.

My reason for the call on the turn was really the same as Paul's, once the flop had came I wasn't convinced any of us had hit anything (in hindsight if I had raised there was a good chance that BB and Paul may have folded)

Again, as Paul admits he had been raising and had decided to mix it up and limped in, I bought it and had Paul on possibly Ax.

When the 8 came on the turn I expected Paul to bet and if it were to be similar (3200) would more than likely called. If Paul pushes here I am folding.

As it was Paul checked, I didn't have him on PP or holding a 2 (bad read, we all do it)

I then had a decision, check and allow another card? ( I think my 8's are possibly good here remember)

Bet and allow a possible re-raise and then have the decision to make?

As paul said, I hadn't shown too much aggression, maybe this was the time to do it??

My decision was to push and give Paul the decision, I was prepared for the call TBH and if I lost was prepared to praise the call, albeit I would have been down to the felt.

Thought it would help if I put my thinking into the pot.

I am fairly new to the game, and accept I probably didn't play it well, however it is by reading this sort of analysis, especially when it is about my own play that hopefully I will learn quicker and hopefully not inflict too many decisions like this on good guys like Paul.

Again Paul, my thanks to you for not being on my case for the way I played this.

appreciated

geo.

Footnote:

Possibly ironic, A8 hearts was the hand that put me out on the bubble in this comp.

short stack on the BB and everyone folds to SB who has a large stack just calls. I push and he calls with K7 hearts.

7 hits the flop and no help from turn and river.

I can hear paul now - justice!! - lol

After these 2 hands I have vowed never to play A8 again unless I can get a cheap flop.


Geo

Geo, you did nothing wrong.

Your call on the flop, ok was a little dubious, but other than that, you played it fine.

Next time I'll get ya! lol

Thanks mate,

I don't doubt it.

Hope all went well on the anniversary, regards to Charmaine.

Geo

Right this is my take on the hand.

Personally as flushy said 99 has to be seen with so few chips as a big hand in itself, as you said you were trying to show strength by limping, possibly representing AA/KK. I cant check back now but i believe you had around 12/13BB's so a 3 or 4x BB raise was possible here and still hav 10BB's back if you have to fold to overcards on the flop or a strong reraise preflop.

Even if Geo had come along for the ride you would have been in much stronger a position to represent overcards (coud he have called your all in even if an Ace had hit?? doubt it!) as you are raising UTG which must be seen as stregth as if you had a marginal hand you simply would have pushed as you are so so low in chips and want to get people off their hand instead of in play.

You would have also got the BB off the hand preflop and then no need to even worry about the 22 on the flop as no way geo is coming in here UTG+1 with a 2 in his hand after your UTG raise.
Flop comes 225, what better flop could you wish to see heads up with 99, you cant be worried about geo having an overair as in my opinion he would have reraised you all in preflop and IMO is only in to see a cheap flop, which it turns out he was.

This is where you want to be pushing right here on the flop, i would already know in my head he is not going to call [unless he does have a hand like A5s in which case your probably getting paid off as he thinks he might have outdrawn you]  would be happy to take down the 7200 chip profit ( i think thats right geo's 3 or 4xBB call+SB+BB) which would put you on ~17 BB which then gives you some more room to mix it up or at least see you through the blinds comfortably.

I think this hand should have been played out on the flop and not got to the turn personally.

Sorry if this analysis is all over the shop, one of my few posts i have made in HA and hope they get smoother, or more accurate as time progresses!