blonde poker forum

Part 1:

Katja Thater vs Stuart Fox:

Welcome to the latest HotW, this week, taken from the EPT event in Dublin in 2006. You'll be playing the part of Katja Thater in the small blind holding Qc 9c, you've got around 15.5k in chips and the blinds are 150/300 with a 25 ante. The table is 9-handed. Stuart Fox is in the cut-off with about 14.5k.

Folded round to Stuart who raises from the cut-off to 900. Katja calls from the small blind. The big blind folds.

Flop:

Jc 7c Td

You're first to act.


1. First of all, is this a worthwhile call preflop with this hand, given the stack sizes and blinds?

2. Having flopped a monster draw, what do you think is the best way to proceed?

3. If you do not wish to play the draw aggressively, is there a good arguement for just check-calling?

1. I think its a marginal call, OOP to Fox...I am looking to flop a monster of proceed cautiously...flopping top pair could get me into a world of pain

2. I flop a monster draw, with as many as 15 outs, the nine clubs and the up and down straight draw. I think an aggressive player like Fox will C-bet...I'm check raising here.

3. I much prefer the lead out, and if necessary the 3 bet if he raises, to a check call...I want to see all five cards not be in a fix if the turn blanks me and I am OOP.

lead for about 1200 and 3 bet all in to a raise, take the pot there and then and if not you are slight favourite over most hands anyway.

btw, i pass preflop

can I play Homer ?

1. First of all, is this a worthwhile call preflop with this hand, given the stack sizes and blinds?

you are calling 600 into a 1600 pot- 2.66-1 not horrendous odds- has mr fox been raising a lot from the cut off? there are worse hands to defend with- if its been happeneing a lot- reraise not a bad option- esp if you have been having a fold fest from your BB. not overly intrested in folding with these stack sizes

2. Having flopped a monster draw, what do you think is the best way to proceed?

check raise, am fairly certain he will bet this flop

3. If you do not wish to play the draw aggressively, is there a good arguement for just check-calling?

I do want to play it aggressively!- ok check if you want and then bet the turn i spose..... but that would probably be too aggressive?1

You are calling 750 into a 1575 pot.

my bad- i will take the 2-1 esp if he has button raising my bb- makes my call more marginal though. just blame the (presciption) drugs i am on at the mo.

(Note to self..... always read the question properly before answering)

barely, but you are lucky so that compensates

:D

Even though you know the outcome, I'm sure people would've love to know how you'd play your opponents hand here. Just don't give away the ending. ;)

Harsh but true Tighty. She should fold or reraise pre flop, calling is out of the question but having done so its a nice flop for her.

1. Conceding position against a good player is pretty tough... I'd rather see a re-rai pre then a call.. but I guess calling is ok.

2. I'd bet 3/bet all in.. if he folds then you wouldn't have won much even if you hit. You miss out on a cbet, but you win more if he bluff raises, and you want to be getting your stack in the middle here by betting it, not calling it, and given stack sizes, leading lets you do it.

3. if you dont want to play it agressively, then you check call.. so what is the question?

I don't like the pre-flop call (A) because she's playing the hand out of position (B) she's unlikley to hit a nut flush (C) if she hits a queen she'll have no idea where she stands and it'll cost her a large percentage of her stack to find out and (D) I don't think she quite has enough chips to warrant a pre-flop out-of-position call with Queen high.


Considering your destined to be the fave, I'd be happy to see all my chips go in here, so I'd bet out hoping he either has top pair and re-raises. Then you can push. If he calls, you're still in very good shape, and if he folds, then that's pretty satisfactory too.


I don't like check-calling. I think you're wasting too much of your stack. Plus, he might slow down if you hit.

1. I would call or pass preflop. I would almost never reraise at this blind level. What's the point? I have a hand which could bust Stuart... why put in 3k just to pass when he reads me for weakness and pushes? I think calling approx 5% of my chips is fine with this sort of hand against an aggressive opponent.

2. I like leading at the pot for 800-1000. It looks a bet which suggests I am looking to draw cheaply at the pot and might induce Stuart to raise. If he raises I'm insta-allin.

3. Sorry, but if you aren't going to play this pot aggressively after that flop, you have no business playing a 5k buyin tournament.

I would pick up Stuart's cards and chuck them in the muck, then declare "who the daddy" as i scoop the pot.

LOL

baring in mind Stuart would certainly have me pegged as a total nut peddler by this stage, my call preflop is as good as most peoples raise.

I expect Stuart to try and take it after the flop so I think I muster some stones up and I try a check raise. I'm hoping my super tight image prevents the re-raise all in. I obviously don't want to be calling with the draw.

Preflop is pretty marginal

Postflop lead then 3-bet allin.

The call gives him the chance to hit for free, the reraise forces him to make a decision without seeing a flop.

if I'm making a stand with a stronger hand then I reraise preflop but the  Qc   9c is pretty marginal so if I'm playing it I'm calling then acting after the flop.

Stuart wouldn't have you pegged as a rock so you calling preflop wouldnt have the same effect as me doing it.

Part 2:


A quick recap to save people from alternating between pages: Katja has got around 15.5k in chips and the blinds are 150/300 with a 25 ante. The table is 9-handed. Stuart Fox is in the cut-off with about 14.5k.

Folded round to Stuart who raises from the cut-off to 900. Katja calls from the small blind holding Qc 9c. The big blind folds.

Flop:

Jc 7c Td

Katja checks, Stuart bets 1,250, Katja raises to 3,500, Stuart calls.

Turn:

Ts

Both players check.

River:

3s

Action on you.

1. What do you think of the turn check after the flop check/raise?

2. What sort of hands do you put Stuart on?

3. Given the flop and turn action, is a river bluff worthwhile?

Katja has gone for the same play as me.

I put another 5k out on the turn.
I'm trying to price stuart out of any straight or flush draw but more likely I have him on AJ/A10 but if he has either of them all my draws are still live.

If I bet the turn I imagine it's push or fold for Stuart and I have to call the allin if it comes. the lattter obviously suits me better

Stuart could well have a house to check behind on the turn, give up the pot and wish you had raised more on the flop.

in the unlikely event that I play the hand at all and that following my check raise on the flop with a check on the turn, I'm done with the hand

Talk about a whimpish way to play.

Why would you want to check raise to 3500 and leave yourself with a mere 11k? surely you should have checkraised all in as by giving your opponent the chance to call the check raise you are going to stuffed if not making your hand by the turn. Genrally if you are going to put 25-30% or more of your stack into a pot you are better off pushing the whole lot in as ou give yourself maximum flod equity.

Anyway the play is a check raise so lets stick with that.

1. The check on the turn is very weak. After the check raise on the flop you are supposed to be representing a strong hand so by checking on the turn you are in essence telling your opponent that you are giving up on this hand and conceding defeat. I would have thought Stuart would have been expecting you to follow through with a bet on the turn but your check is either saying that you have a J with a weak kicker or scared he might be holding a ten with a straight draw. Either way Stuart sprobably nw confident that he has the best hand unless you hold a JT and completed a full on the turn which would be a strange way to play a hand where u have flopped two pair.

I don't like my position here as I ahve a Q high and should probably prefer to give up on the hand here but being me and seeing 9k out there for the taking would push my remaining 11k in on the turn. Without a full house or at minimum AA it is a tough call for Stuart.

2. Stuart called a 7.25k pot on the flop after the check raise for 2250 more so he could easily have a pair with a gutshot straight draw or an overpair or a J with a Q or K or A or T kicker or a very wide range of hands because you under check raised compared to the size of the pot. The relatively small check raise doesn't define his hand at all and these are the kinds of hands I put him on when we leave the flop and enter the turn. Your check followed by his check on the turn tells me he is most likely drawing like me or has a full house. Personally it is difficult to see the full house as if he had a set or two pair on the flop and turned a full ouse he would most likely because of the draws on the flop re reraised me as I check raised him indcating a strong hand or at least a big draw even though I was out of position. Hence for his hand I sway towards him holding one pair or a pair with a gutshot straight draw or a flush draw.

3. Because I see Stuart as holding a mediocre type hand I believe that he has not got a monster and that a bluff bet all in has a goood chance of success on the river. He would surely have bet to stop you drawing on the turn or fancy that he is in front so would bet the turn (unless he had a monster which for reasons given above I believe he hasn't got) so I expct him to be forced to fold as he is going to need a mnimum of AJ to call this and even that os a tough call.

Overall this hand seems more complicated to me than it should have been due to the way it was played but such is poker life and varying the way you play is part of the game an eseential for confusing your opponent.

I think I will have to make a mental note not to read Harry's reply before I plan to make one..they tend to be all-encompassing...


so she's under checkraised...I think she has to lead the turn on a semi bluff or else completely give away she is on a draw as you don't check a made hand there in case Stuart is drawing. It also, leading the turn, sets you up to make a stab at it in the river if you miss again, which will be your only way to win the hand. Once you check the turn any river attempt won't be that plausible so check fold is really the only option then.

Stuart's check on the turn is interesting...style of player he is I would expect him to bet there...maybe he has a monster? 10 x? trying to entice a river bluff?

Played it terribly in my opinion, raising so little on the Flop with a hand that like is ridiculous. She's inviting him to call only to show weakness on the River and pretty much being forced to give it up.

Sorry I tend to get carried away with these types of questions.

Nothing in poker life is simple and as always there are infinite possibilities to consider when analyzing any hand. However before I get too carried away the person actually involved in the hand is the best person to actually assess the best way to play the hand as they are the ones feeling where they are at in a hand and are aware of all the previous hand histories between themself and the opponent at the time. As such an outsiders view like that of mine is of limited value compared to the person actually playing the hand as their thinking at the time has more weight and relevance than that of myself or other outsiders.

Sorry, for the delay in the reveal, it'll be up soon. And a new hand started on Monday.

Reveal is now here, http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9691

HOLLA!

I have to follow up on this now that we know Stuart was holding JT (a hand which I readily dismissed incidentally) with a couple fo further comments.

The flop came JT 7 wit 2 clubs.

There are two schools of thought and styles of play here (both equally valid I hasten to add).

First Thought/Style

On the flop Thater checked and Stuart bet followed by the check raise form Thater.

Personally I would read Thater's check raise out of position as either a big draw or at least top pair (but maybe even an overpair as I already hold a J and T which makes it less likely Thater has one of those cards) and as such would interpet the check raise as showing committment to the hand and push all in expecting to be called. As Stuart this woiuld have been my preferred play and if Thater had a hand like 89 or 77 then good luck to her. I would also be thinking that the board represented many possible draws and as such could prove dangerous to me if a straight or flushing card came on the turn.  As such I am happy to get all the money in on the flop with top two pair and think there is litte chance of my opponent folding in this spot.

Second Thought and style of play.

This is not a multi way pot (its heads up) between you and and one opponent out of position.

As Stuart flopping top two pair is a monster against one opponent and as such I want to get some value out of my hand and because of this I am prepared to take a chance and risk a straight card or flush card that may or may not damage me and help my opponent. I may even still commit all my chips on the turn if a straight or flush card comes up on the turn because its heads up.

To be honest I think this is the more professional of the two plays and would favour this play earlier in the tournament (as is the case here) except for the potentially dangerous looking board. Late on in a tournament I would defintiely not slow play this hand as I beieive you have too much to lose slow playing than by playing it straight but thats another discussion and dependant on the tage of the competition.

My comments above are not intended to be definitive ones as everything is relative to what you think about your opponent and how you think they are playing against you. eg If Stuart thought that Thater had an overpair (such as AA) but would fold to an all in re-raise on the flop then of course the right thing to do is smooth call the check raise on the flop.

Bottom line is that regardless of the play chosen it really is dependant on how you are reading your opponent and how you are assessing their play at the time so the best person to judge a play is the person actually at the table as they are in the best position to judge what may or may not be the best play. In essence what I am saying is that you have to make a judgement call here. As Howard Lederer says this is a game of incomplete information and you just have to make your best guess play. So back your judgement and make the play according to that judgement. Just because you may get it wrong from time to time doesn't mea you shouldn't make that play because the bottom line is that you will never ever be absolutely certain about what the right play is so you just have to go with your best guess.

After the event it is always easy to judge what would and would not have been the best play because you now know all the cards and what would or would not have been the best likely course of action.

So in answer to how Stuat played his hand (questionposed at the end of the reveal) - it depends on what his thiking of his opponent was at the time and whether he was prepared to take a chance in the hope he could extract more from a good hand and on what he felt Thater was holding. Assuming he put Thater on the flush or straight draw then it can often be correct to wait until the turn to commit chips making it difficlt for Thater to call with one card to come if not already holding the made hand.

Personally as stated above the board is a little too scary for my liking and on the flop if I were Stuart and beaten already it would be too bad. After the check raise with 7k+ in the pot I am happy to pick up the pot there and then (its too large to allow an opponent to hit on the turn) and as such would not slow play and put the rest of my chips in. As it happens on the turn I have a full and as such now I am prepared to wait nd hope my opponent iproves and/or bluffs into me on the river.

(NB This doesn't make me right and Stuart wrong just my preferred play with the information I have at my disposal which is a lot less tha Stuart would have had to go on having played for a few hjours with that opponent).

BTW I have just remembered I have failed to comment on wether or not I would have bet in Stuart's position after the check to me on the flop.

Because of the dangerous type board I would have bet something as did Stuart thinking its unlikely my opponent has anything along the lines of a J or T (as I am holding one of each) and preflopThater called me with most likely two big cards or a pair (after all what else would someone call my late position raise in the small blind and not re raise me) . As such Thater may have been slow playing an overpair and this could be just the spot in which I could win a big pot especially if Thater had the overpair and especially Aces or Kings. After the check raise though I now feel confident that Thater definitely has a decent hand (or at least a big draw as outlined above) and would proceed according to the above comments.

PS A slight correction to the titleHome page where I am (mis)quoted.

I know you are roughly a 60/40 underdog to a set on the flop and do not recall saying you are a favourite against a set but a marginal favourite against two aces including the Ace of Clubs and a significant favourite against two red aces.

PPS Against top two pair as in this case you are roughly 50/50 on the flop so all in pushing or calling is pretty easy to do and you get the right odds to do the same even against a set the way the bettng goes but it is always better to be the one shoving as you get some fold equity...hence the power of pushing chips in first rather than calling.

Lucky guess.  ;D

Sry, I made a typo. Have edited it now.

Harry has made some good points about both our play in this hand, its aways good to learn new ways of thinking to help get into the mind of your opponents. How did I play the hand ? I had been raising alot and felt like the table was gonna hit back at me in the next round and somone would come back at me with a weak hand, so now I want to hit by big hand and get paid for them being angry at folding to my position raises .     to sum it up     -  If i would have re rasied her reraise on the flop well then id have all her chips for sure, I never felt good about this hand from the start and even flopping top two pair I still felt like I was beat or would be beat by the river. As soon as she re raised me on the flop I was hoping to just check it down with top two but as I hit a dream turn I could afford to let her hit a flush, strait or just hang herself on the river and get all the chips, but a bad river for me and the rest played itself realy. Btw all round piss head is a bit heavy Snopps but I here you and will sort it.